(mods, am i in the right forum? please move if not)

I admit to being utterly confused.

in the BoE thread, we learn this;



Vassal Knights
I'll address the issue of vassal knights in re: BoESTATE.

Vassal Knights are rare, not everyday.
Granting land to a vassal means reducing your income, removing any cushion of financial flexibility, giving away your inheritance, and giving away your power to someone who will be in a position to complain.
Great landholders have more to give from, and thus suffer less from all of that self-weakening. Look at Roderick--one of the most powerful lords in Logres, and he has 25 vassals in Salisbury out of about 70 knights, 20 of whom hold just a single manor. The ration of income is about 80% to the count, 20% to the vassals.

That being said,
creating a vassal knight is simple.
Decide how much income you want him to have--£10 is normal.
Reduce the number of garrison by 1 and footmen by 2.
Decide which settlement is his manor.
Done.
If he wants to know who works for him now, see page 30 BoESTATE.


Now, I am a player, not a GM, I own the 2005 5th ed with the troit boar on the cover, and nothing else. we use the errata published on http://www.gspendragon.com/pendragon_errata.html. I've briefly browsed through Lordly domains and the book of the manor.

I Get that the basic £/pa for a manor seems to have shifted to £10 from £6, that's not an issue.

what I dont get is the difference between the above statement that a 20/80 enfoeffed/demesne ratio is standard, when previously I've been working on assumptions drawn from pp. 134-135,

"A knight banneret holds several manors and estates. He must have at least three vassal knights of his own holding land from him, but typically has seven or eight"

to comply to the 20/80 ratio, that means your average banneret has thirty demesne manors? (which is more than several, to my mind)

whereas,

"On Average, a baron has about 25 vassal knights, and hold 30-40 manors..."

?? I had presumed this to be 25 enfoeffed manors plus 5-15 demesne.
even if its 25 enfoeffed plus 30-40 demesne, this is still way off the 20/80 ratio.

the Baseline for Banneretcy (and I suspect most campaign's first banneret comes straight from this) is set on page 56 with Lady Adwen. "Her Holding would make her husband a banneret and a rich knight. Holdings 2 Demesne Manors and Four Enfoefffed Manors".

help?

Don't try to match up the two. Starting with Estates and the upcoming Warlords, the definitions of the various noble ranks has changed to be more historically accurate. So, they don't really match what is in the main rule book. The number of vassals aside, I think the descriptions in the main rule book are based on more modern definitions of the British Peerage. Estates/Warlords use follow the earlier usage. For example, a Baron isn't a rank, it is any one who holds an estate directly from the king. Many lords are barons including Earls and Dukes. Duke in the earlier phase is more of a local war leader not a rank above Earl.

Additionally, the economic system in Estates and Warlords doesn't really distinguish vassals from household knights in the way previous versions have. A lord has a total income. The lord has to supply some number of knights. The game mechanics don't go into the detail to distinguish whether they are vassals or bachelor knights.


NT

Bit of thread necromancy here...

Like Eothar said, the definitions have changed, and changed towards the more 'historical' usage. Owning land was a huge deal.

Now in our campaign, which started way before BoEstates was even mentioned as a possible book, we have more of a 50/50 split, although it is not explicitly nailed down. Mainly the players interact with other vassal knights.

Huh. Funny thing about the Banneret knight. For some reason, for all this time I have been reading it as 'usually has 7 or 8 manors, of which at least 3 are given to vassal knights'. Don't know where I picked that up. Probably from Lady Adwen's description that you showed, too. Then again, 4th ed only says that a banneret has 3 -knights- and usually 7 or 8. That might be it, 8 knights = 8 manors in my mind.

Also, I think Greg mentioned at some point that 'banneret' is no longer an inherited title, but more of an 'office'. Basically, if you have proven yourself as a war leader, the Count might appoint you to lead a group of knights, a banner if you will. But that's pretty much it. Naturally, we are keeping to the previous edition usage in our campaign.