Hi,

The Homelands and Leaders of Pendagon (http://weareallus.com/pendragon/leaders.html) page states repeatedly that Leicester is a part of Lambor. I believe this is wrong, and that Leicester should belong to Lindsey. The wrong information can be found in the following entries:

Leicester, City [Lambor, Logres]

Lambor [Logres]

? also info about Leicester is missing from the Lindseyentry.

Best,

Peter

I like these sorts of errors/ambiguities. They can be very fruitful sources of plot.

IMG Lambor is the rural hinterland for Leicester and both together form one of the three counties (Lindsey and Lonazep being the other two) run by the Duke of Lindsey for the King. The Duke holds Lindsey in his personal right and the city of Leicester by virtue of his marriage, making the Earl of Lambor an in-law who rather resents the fact that a choice portion of his county was entailed to the Duke (even if the Duke's wife and children are kin).

Of course now that Uther is dead and the Duke hasn't been seen since the Saxon invasion of 494 all this is up in the air...

Regards
Luke

The Homelands and Leaders of Pendagon (http://weareallus.com/pendragon/leaders.html) page states repeatedly that Leicester is a part of Lambor. I believe this is wrong, and that Leicester should belong to Lindsey. The wrong information can be found in the following entries:


I am curious about why you think this informatin is wrong.

--g

I am curious about why you think this informatin is wrong.

Oh, wrong is a strong word when considering a Britain that never was. Perhaps it would have been wiser to use the term inconsistencies instead. The source of my confusion is your own writing. However, after checking the sources I've discovered that putting Leicester in Lambor actually makes sense.

Here's what happened:

Pendragon 4th edition clearly states that Leicester is part of Lindsey (p. 77), and even that the Duke of Lindsey is occasionally referred to as the Duke of Leicester. So when I read the information that you provided at the Homelands and Leaders of Pendragon (http://weareallus.com/pendragon/leaders.html) page, I wondered if perhaps you had changed your mind. However, the descriptive text under Leicester still claims "the Duke of Lindsey is still occasionally referred to as the Duke of Leicester, even though Lincoln is now the center of the duke's realm." Furthermore we are told that Leicester is a vassal of the Duke Leicester. So I quickly concluded that it must be a clerical error, and posted here claiming it was wrong.

After reading your question, it occured to me that I ought to go over the 5th edition books. First I checked out the map in GPC page 31, Logres 485, and was surprised to find that you must have changed your mind after all. But then surely the part about the Duke of Lindsey being known as the Duke of Leicester was a clerical error, right? That's what I thought until I discovered that Lindsey has two separate entries on p. 32 in the same book. Apparently Lindsey is both a county and a dutchy, the latter which "includes the counties of Lindsey, Lambor, and Lonazep".

Punchline: So apparently the city of Leicester is located in Lambor but belongs to the Duke of Lindsey. It makes perfect sense.

A couple of question, though: Does this make Leicester a part of the fief of the Duke of Lindsey? Or is it technically a part of the county of Lindsey? Or does it still somehow belong to Lambor, thus making Duke Lindsey both lord and vassal of Lambor? The latter would be spectacularly perverse. :D

Best,

Peter

The Duke holds Lindsey in his personal right and the city of Leicester by virtue of his marriage, making the Earl of Lambor an in-law who rather resents the fact that a choice portion of his county was entailed to the Duke (even if the Duke's wife and children are kin).

This is an entertaining suggestion. And it does make the Duke both vassal and lord of Lambor, right?

Best,

Peter

Your ALL WRONG SUCKAS!!!!!!!!!!! ;D Leicester belongs TO Count/King Edar of Allington!!!!!! :P Just Read Gregs Blog and you will see!!! Go Edar!

AFAIK, Greg is not responsible for 4th edition, so I use it as a supplemental guideline only

AFAIK, Greg is not responsible for 4th edition, so I use it as a supplemental guideline only

Hm. My copy of the 4th edition is essentially identical to the 3rd edition, with the stuff from Knights Adventurous added in.

Shows that I should check my source material before posting from work! :)

The Duke holds Lindsey in his personal right and the city of Leicester by virtue of his marriage, making the Earl of Lambor an in-law who rather resents the fact that a choice portion of his county was entailed to the Duke (even if the Duke's wife and children are kin).

This is an entertaining suggestion. And it does make the Duke both vassal and lord of Lambor, right?


Not really. My view of the various Dukedoms of Logres (Cornwall, Lindsey etc) is that they are a military offices and don't involve oaths of vassalage from the subordinated earls. Corneus (as Duke of Lindsey) is a royal officer with authority of Lambor's military dispositions, but Corneus (as Earl of Lindsey) is Lambor's colleague and neighbour (and in-law).

As to who he swore oaths of vassalage to for his Leicester dower portion - I'm not sure, Uther probably - feudal estates all come from the king ultimately and I don't see Uther being the sort of king who would look kindly upon his tenants-in-chief swearing vassalage to each other. The issue might come up again when Derfel (who is Corneus' son rather than his nephew IMG) achieves his majority and Leicester joins the Lindsey patrimony for good and all.

Regards
Luke