Hello all,

I have been running a few of the adventures in Pendragon with my group and we have been having a lot of fun with it. I recently picked up the GPC and have been getting really into the feel of it. However we have never really used the Knights Manor part of the rules and it appears to be a big part of the GPC.

What I am confused on is how many foot soldiers, sergeants, and household knights a player Knight can expect to have. In the Book of Entourage it says a basic soldier costs £1 to maintain (pg23 Book of Entourage). This to me seems rather expensive. How are player Knights supposed to afford a large enough garrison to man a simple Mote and Bailey defense, 10 professionals, or even their starting estate, 5 professionals (pg79 Book of Estates)?

So for the players to get soldiers they must build Investments and a fair number of them to both man their defenses and pay for Improvements and the likes. To me this seems like a problem, but then again I have never used the Manors. Do players end up with a sufficient force to man their own defenses or are their starved for soldiers?



As a point of interest I noticed that the table on page 43 under the Analysis section of the Book of Estates shows army expenditures as a percent of an Estates total income. However the actual amount of money spent on the army is very low. According to the table a £30 income Estate spends 12% of their income on an army or £7.2. This isn't enough to man even the most basic of defenses.

Also I have no idea where the cost per soldier figure comes from on page 39 of the Book of Estates. It says that nine spearman cost £4.5 but I can't find confirmation of that figure anywhere in the Book of Estates, Book of Manors, or the Book of Entourage. In fact the Book of Entourage and Book of Manors explicitly state that a Spearman costs £1 to maintain (pg23 Book of Entourage, pg12 Book of Manors).


If I could get some help on this it would be appreciated.

Thanks!

I don't have BoE so no comment on that. Motte and Bailey is a castle, something way beyond a simple knight.

However you may wish to read this thread that was asking similar questions:
http://nocturnal-media.com/forum/index.php?topic=2060.0

I have been running a few of the adventures in Pendragon with my group and we have been having a lot of fun with it. I recently picked up the GPC and have been getting really into the feel of it. However we have never really used the Knights Manor part of the rules and it appears to be a big part of the GPC.

Not necessarily. The Book of the Manor is entirely optional, and exists largely because players usually like tinkering with it.
I presume that you generated characters by the book, and each of the PKs has a manor
but they do not need to run it if they do not wish
I currently recommend that it be used only for the later Periods


What I am confused on is how many foot soldiers, sergeants, and household knights a player Knight can expect to have.

That is easy
None


In the Book of Entourage it says a basic soldier costs £1 to maintain (pg23 Book of Entourage).

Hmm, my page 23 is about marriages
Page 25 has prices for soldiers


This to me seems rather expensive.

Yes. That is why it was changed in later supplements
I apologize for changing things around like that, but as long as I am working on it my increased knowledge and experience often force me to correct myself rather than carry errors forward. I try to keep it to a minimum!


How are player Knights supposed to afford a large enough garrison to man a simple Mote and Bailey defense, 10 professionals, or even their starting estate, 5 professionals (pg79 Book of Estates)?

They aren't expected to do that
It is something to work up to
The Count's responsibility is to protect his followers and their lands. He will have his trusted men lead contingents of soldiers, etc.


So for the players to get soldiers they must build Investments and a fair number of them to both man their defenses and pay for Improvements and the likes. To me this seems like a problem, but then again I have never used the Manors. Do players end up with a sufficient force to man their own defenses or are their starved for soldiers?

It is better to do good deeds for the count, and let him promote the knights
But yes, you can build up a manor and get more money
Be warned though, your manor will probably get trashed in the Anarchy Period, and suffer the consequences of being poor, etc


As a point of interest I noticed that the table on page 43 under the Analysis section of the Book of Estates shows army expenditures as a percent of an Estates total income. However the actual amount of money spent on the army is very low. According to the table a £30 income Estate spends 12% of their income on an army or £7.2. This isn't enough to man even the most basic of defenses.

Also I have no idea where the cost per soldier figure comes from on page 39 of the Book of Estates. It says that nine spearman cost £4.5 but I can't find confirmation of that figure anywhere in the Book of Estates, Book of Manors, or the Book of Entourage. In fact the Book of Entourage and Book of Manors explicitly state that a Spearman costs £1 to maintain (pg23 Book of Entourage, pg12 Book of Manors).

Yes, but I changed the cost when I got to BoESTATE
Use the BoE values
Whenever there is a conflict, always go with the newer version of rules or prices

Wow, well first off thank you for the quick and complete reply.

After reading through your responses I think I understand where my confusion is coming from. I was working under the idea that even in the early periods each manor would have a small host of men along with the Knight, but this apparently isn't the case. I guess I need to put more emphasis on the court and the Earls lands instead of the players manors.

At what period in the game, if any, would players be expected to have garrisons?







Also I have no idea where the cost per soldier figure comes from on page 39 of the Book of Estates. It says that nine spearman cost £4.5 but I can't find confirmation of that figure anywhere in the Book of Estates, Book of Manors, or the Book of Entourage. In fact the Book of Entourage and Book of Manors explicitly state that a Spearman costs £1 to maintain (pg23 Book of Entourage, pg12 Book of Manors).

Yes, but I changed the cost when I got to BoESTATE
Use the BoE values
Whenever there is a conflict, always go with the newer version of rules or prices


So if I am understanding then the figure in the Book of Estate is the most up to date not the Book of Entourage, as the Copyright date in the Book of Estate is the newest. Is this then a prelude to the Book of Warlords? If not then I am unsure where the cost per spearman come from other then the Expenses (Army) table on the specified page.

I have tried to be complete in my reading and understanding of the materials before I posted to ensure I wasn't missing something obvious and I have recently purchased my source material from DriveThruRPG.com so I am reasonably certain that I have the most up to date copies of the game. However as a new player to the system I am confused as to which material is the newest. Is their a list that shows which supplements are the newest?


Thank you for your help!

P.S.
I don't want my comments misconstrued, I am not bothered by the changing of the rules. I much prefer that you are willing to make changes to the system in order to improve it.

At what period in the game, if any, would players be expected to have garrisons?


The short answer is, none of them. Frankly the time you would really need a garrison is during the early phases (Uther, Anarchy especially, Boy King), and by the time you get to the later periods, there are no longer outside threats that would really justify the expense. Your Campaign Might Vary, of course; for example in our campaign the Levcomagus-Salisbury border has flared up a couple of times, or other enemies of the PKs might have staged raids.

But really, the one-manor knight is no warlord. His manor provides enough income for him and his family, it is not a castle nor a fortification. If the Count appoints you as a castellan of a castle, then sure, you will have a garrison, but those tend to be the Count's soldiers, too. Again, YCMV, I have no problems with PKs spending money to have some extra soldiers running around their estates, if they can afford it, but the basic knight is not intended to be that rich. Check out a knight with half a dozen manors and he should be able to afford fortifying his home manor and garrisoning it. But he is already a minor Lord at that point.

So if I am understanding then the figure in the Book of Estate is the most up to date not the Book of Entourage, as the Copyright date in the Book of Estate is the newest.

Yes


Is this then a prelude to the Book of Warlords?

Yes


I have tried to be complete in my reading and understanding of the materials before I posted to ensure I wasn't missing something obvious and I have recently purchased my source material from DriveThruRPG.com so I am reasonably certain that I have the most up to date copies of the game. However as a new player to the system I am confused as to which material is the newest. Is their a list that shows which supplements are the newest?

Maybe Taliesin will make one for us :)


I don't want my comments misconstrued, I am not bothered by the changing of the rules. I much prefer that you are willing to make changes to the system in order to improve it.

I am always open to any criticism that is not a flame
Thanks for the support!

Greg might correct me here, but...

I get the impression that sometimes the 'costs' vary from one pub to the next in part based on presentation. BoEntourage gives you the full cost of hiring a spearman, for example. This includes food, clothing, weapon maintenance etc. In BoEstate the breakdown shows you mostly food costs for the spearman with other portions of the expenses partitioned out to different places on the balance sheet.

NT

Nice to see you posting again, Eothar. :)

I know there was the issue of knights and squires that we ran into in one of the supplements, where a knight's cost was £3 and a squire £1. Which, together, make up for the old knight(+squire assumed) £4.

Making spearmen cheaper seems to be a conscious design choice on part of Greg, at least if I have understood his reply here correctly.

Where in BoEstate account sheet are these 'other expenses' tallied for the spearmen?

Take the £50 estate.

The spearmen cost £0.5 but the 'army' includes costs for an armorer, his wife, a courier, his wife...there is also building maintenance, iron for the armorer etc.

So the total coast for 15 soldiers is more than just what it costs to feed them.

I don't think that the #s transfer exactly, but at some level the expenses are partitioned out differently.

NT