Hi guys. About a month ago, I made the plunge and ordered a physical hardcover copy of KAP 5.1.
Upon receiving it, I inspected it carefully and noticed a few issues. I recently took picture of them and decided to ask you all what you think of it.

First, when opening the book, when you look at the spine, a small portion of the cloth material making the spine seems not to be glued properly. Maybe that's normal and it is just that tiny corner but I hope that the book won't start coming apart when used at the table.
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3754/12665151023_287b5dc2ba_c.jpg

Secondly, and more bottersome I would say, is that the book never stays closed. When lying flat on its back, the cover and a few pages always stick up a bit.
This gives me the impression that the binding was done too tight.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7376/12665036295_b137acf806_c.jpg http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3788/12665151653_098bb03ec5_c.jpg

And lastly, there a four needle size holes (ony three pictured) along the inside cover of the book. Don't know if its normal or another sign that something might be too tight.
Sorry about the quality of this last picture, it has been taken using my tablet as opposed to my normal camera.
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3774/12857230414_516a16a8c5_c.jpg

So what are you guys opinion? I have other PoD books (but from Lulu though I think they use the same printing company as RPGNow) and never had these peculiarities though they were hardcovers about half the size of the KAP rulebook.

Thanks for your feedback.

My copy is absolutely fine, no glue problems and it closes fine. If I was you I would get in touch with where ever you bought it from.

I agree
contact whoever sold it to you
Nocturnal has a guarantee for this kind of stuff

Just to give everyone a follow-up. The good folks at DTRPG are offering a replacement or a credit.
That's gonna be a tough decision wether I want an extra copy for play or another fine Pendragon book.

Well I went for another copy and it came up with the cover problem even worse then the first one.
They again offered me yet another copy or a store credit. I went with the credit this time.

They say that they often have issues with "larger" PoD products. Never thought KAP was such a large book.
Though overall I must say that they've been trying their best to resolve my issue.

Damn, I'm really sorry to hear that, Sir Dom. I must say, honestly, that my own POD hardback cover came in just fine, and has held up well so far, although my usage has been light. That's because — and I never thought I'd say this — I actually prefer the PDF these days for a number of reasons:

1.) They're searchable.

2.) I can print my own and coil bind it — it lays flat.

3.) Updates with the latest errata are free, so I always have the latest rules, It's a snap to just print the corrected pages and replace them in my bound version.

4.) Since the book doesn't seem as "precious" I can mark in them, or highlight them without feeling like I'm ruining an expensive book.

5.) They take up less room on my bookshelf. Maybe not a problem for many readers, but I've seriously run out of bookshelf space.

6.) They're more portable, since I can carry a whole library of titles on my iPad.

I know some folks just prefer to have a physical, hardbound book. Heck, I used to be firmly in that camp. But PDFs have too many advantages; I've come around.

Thanks for your concern Taliesin. You make good points but I guess I wanted to have a nice hard copy in my bookshelf.
The second copy is starting to fall apart now. I'm not sure I'll ever buy something physical from DriveThru but their customer service as tried their best and I'll continue to deal with them… digitally.

Hello everyone I thought I would jump in with a few thoughts of my own here 1st I have only Orderd One printed book from Nocturnal and that is the soft cover print edition of the GPC which I must say is an awsome peice of work greg though like most of you I do have a few issues with it but come to take them in stried and Like Greg says Your game may vaey in style of and what type of adventures you want to run. While I feel much was left out alot more was put in. When I got the book thier was no problems with the GPC and ran a few sessions here in tuscon at hat's games store for internatinal Table top day using 5th edtion rules, sinse that is the lastest I have updated I also had no problems at all with the hardiness of the soft cover print version and has held up for over a year of constant game use. I am currently running any where between 1 to 7 campgains a month with it in various periods, new players I start them off in the Uther period for my other long term players we decided to pick up in the years that we left off on though I have had to back track some to get in some peices of info they might have missed, but that is easy to find out through an intreage check. Lastly I have started using PDF's again and like how drive through rpg has it set up with your own libary on line whcih I think is cool and you can redown load them in case yuour computer gets wiped out by a vires. That was one reason I hated PDF's most companies selling pdf's charged you for them and would not let you do anything with them except print them they saw it as a cheep way to make a lot of money every time I got a computer vires and had to wipe out all my infected viles thier went my game files, when I said hey I needed a new copy they charged me full price with no replacement I am happy to say I have not run into this problem with drive through rpg and nocturnal and I will be buying both versions of print and pdf's just incase. But also like most here do not have a lot of money to spend and lost sevral of my most prised game books fortuneutly I still got most of my KAP stuff which I am very thankful for. But As Taliesin has said the PDF's are easier to search through although I am the type of person when off line like having a printed copy for myself that I can crack an read.

....by the way, noob question here.

Where do you get the updated PDFs? I downloaded the Pendragron rules (both v5 and 5.1) from DriveThruPRG, and they still seem to be the non-errata-fixed versions. I didn't think the 5.1 would be updated yet, but I figured the v5 would be updated for sure, and was surprised to find that it wasn't, either.

How do we get the corrected PDFs. Will they just one day appear as a download on my Account with them?

....by the way, noob question here.

Where do you get the updated PDFs? I downloaded the Pendragron rules (both v5 and 5.1) from DriveThruPRG, and they still seem to be the non-errata-fixed versions. I didn't think the 5.1 would be updated yet, but I figured the v5 would be updated for sure, and was surprised to find that it wasn't, either.

How do we get the corrected PDFs. Will they just one day appear as a download on my Account with them?



I've referred this thread to the publisher. Thanks for your patience!


T.

Thanks for your concern Taliesin. You make good points but I guess I wanted to have a nice hard copy in my bookshelf.
The second copy is starting to fall apart now. I'm not sure I'll ever buy something physical from DriveThru but their customer service as tried their best and I'll continue to deal with them… digitally.


Sir Dom,

Sorry for the troubles with the POD. I have ordered LOTS of POD through DTRPG (for my own shelf, for others, to check check production, etc.) and the majority of the books come back in nice shape, but I have received a handful of poorly bound, or mis-trimmed, or battered (USPS fault on this count) copies. Want to try a POD of a smaller book? Drop me a note at info AT nocturnal-media DOT com and I'll set you up with an "at cost" credit for another POD of your choice.

Stewart

....by the way, noob question here.

Where do you get the updated PDFs? I downloaded the Pendragron rules (both v5 and 5.1) from DriveThruPRG, and they still seem to be the non-errata-fixed versions. I didn't think the 5.1 would be updated yet, but I figured the v5 would be updated for sure, and was surprised to find that it wasn't, either.

How do we get the corrected PDFs. Will they just one day appear as a download on my Account with them?


I've referred this thread to the publisher. Thanks for your patience!


T.


Publisher here. Thanks for the tip, Taliesin.

Sorry, mPicart, but we're stretched pretty thin getting new books completed. We have been pretty good about posting updated versions of the newer books but have not been able to dig back to the older ones yet. If I hear that this is important to more people, then we can shift priorities.

When an updated version is available you will receive a note from DTRPG. If there are big corrections/changes, then I'll generally send an email out as well. Just make certain your account is set so you receive emails from the publisher. Lots of you apparently don't like to receive notice of special sales from me on DTRPG...!

Stewart

Here's a quick update to this thread.

It seems I was not alone with this issue as I've found a Youtube review of someone with exactly the same issue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SykcHTctbKU

On another note, Stewart of Nocturnal was kind enough to offer me another book at discount so I could try my luck at a POD copy of a different product. I went ahead with an hardcover copy of the Book of Battle 2. The copy arrived in good shape. The cover stays slightly up (maybe by 1 or 2mm) but the issue is a lot less bothersome than with the main rulebook. I guess that applying a bit of weight on it for a week or two should flatten it down for good. So if you buy a slim book, there shouldn't be big issues if you go for a hardcover.

So based on my experience, I'm not completely convinced in the capacity of DTRPG/RPGNow to produce a flawless hardcover book, especially when you go above the 200 pages count. So personally, I think I'll go softcover (or digital only) for a while. I've heard that Lulu.com (another print on demand site that uses the same printing company as DTRPG) will soon offer high quality hardcovers (including sewn binding). So that may the best solution if/when it becomes available for DTRPG/RPGNow's catalogue.

So thanks to everyone and especially to Stewart for his excellent customer service. The issue wasn't from their side and he still offered me another book at discount.

Yeah, my hardcover of the rule book had issues as well. Actually a bit more severe. I'm basing my terminology here on a diagram I got from google - but essentially the textblock was entirely detached from the spine. Only the pasted endpages are actually holding the book together. As with the OP, the cover did not lay flat.

But I got full store credit, and through some miscommunication the POD service sent me a second book as well. That one still isn't quite perfect - again the textblock is not actually attached to the spine - but the gap is much much smaller and the book does lay flat. (and you can't argue with free)

I used my credit to buy a print version of the GPC. It has the same 'waviness' issue as in the review Sir Dom linked but it seems well put together otherwise.

One little oddity I noticed. When I got the second copy of the rulebook it was packed with an invoice that referred to it as a "proof copy".

Despite the issues with POD, I'm very happy with DTRPG's customer service so far. They have been very accommodating. I purchased a copy of the GPC, only for Stewart to send out a discount code the next day*. DTRPG allowed me to take advantage of that discount code when they really had no responsibility to do so.

For my part my interest in PoD is purely utilitarian, I don't really collect books for their own sake. I find PDFs a pain to use at the table though.

*Also props to Stewart, I went into my DTRPG settings and allowed emails from Nocturnal after seeing his post in this thread. I generally keep them off because of the level of spam I received from other publishers.

POD is still in it's infancy, relatively speaking. Right now, they're just glorified copy machines (yes, with toner) and cheap binding methods to help keep costs low. It's the price of producing one-off products. Hopefully as time goes on and people invest in better equipment, and the product will get better. I will say that I have my POD copies of KAP 5.1, The Book of the Estate and The Book of Battle II all right here and they're holding up quite well. Now, admittedly I don't use 'em much, favoring the PDF versions. But they seem fairly sturdy for all that, and don't exhibit the kinds of manufacturing issues some folks have reported.

I like PDFs mainly because I can search the text. One recommendation you might consider is printing your own B&W copies and have them coil-bound at your neighborhood Kinko's or Office Depot, etc., as an alternative to POD. That way the book will definitely lay flat, even at only 8.5 x 11 size, since you can fold it back on itself. Also, the book won't feel as precious so you're more likely to highlight and write notes in the margins (which is part of the reason we made them so generous). Finally, when errated versions come out, you can download them for free, print just the errated pages and replace the old with the new.

Don't get me wrong, I love my casebound versions, and recommend them. But there are alternatives for people who've had bad luck or don't want to take a chance on getting a lemon. Thank goodness for DTRPG's willingness to work with people who get a bum book.


T.

Yeah, my hardcover of the rule book had issues as well. Actually a bit more severe. I'm basing my terminology here on a diagram I got from google - but essentially the textblock was entirely detached from the spine. Only the pasted endpages are actually holding the book together. As with the OP, the cover did not lay flat.




Isn't that normal? I have a feeling that many of my mass-produced harcover books don't have the pages glued to the book's spine, but instead it's hold only by the end pages that are glued to the covers. Can't verify now, but I'm pretty sure that's normal for a lot of hard-cover books.

That’s the way it ought to be in a decent hardcover.

Maybe so. For what it's worth I sent in pictures of the book to DTRPG and they choose to give me a refund.

I don't really know the correct terms for the parts of a book, so I may well be describing it poorly.