Looking at the revised grapple rule on the website/errata:


The Grappler uses his DEX skill in an opposed resolution.


This occurs whether the opponent is using a weapon skill or also using Grapple.


If the grappler loses the resolution against an opponent using a weapon, he is hit normally

So the defender uses his weapon skill to defend against the grapple check? This seems like it would make the tactic completely nonviable in exactly situation it's mentioned that someone would want to use it.


or when stalemate has set in between two knights with excellent weapon skills, and neither can easily hurt the other.

I read this as a situation where both knights have skills significantly above 20. (most likely from passions)

For example... Sir Gawaine is fighting Lancelot. Lancelot has a skill of 39. Gawaine's weapon skill is not that high, but a critical success on a passion roll has pushed his sword skill above 40. Neither knight is capable of overcoming the other.

Sir Gawaine throws down his sword in frustration and tries to grab the adulterous cur (no doubt planning to use his supernatural strength to bring this fight to a conclusion)... he must now roll DEX against Lancelots 39 swordsmanship giving him no chance of success. Even if his passion bonus applies, his DEX is almost certainly less than his swordsmanship.

Also, anyone know of specific examples where this happens? (in the stories I mean) Maybe that would help clarify the intention for me.

Well, the armed man should certainly have an advantage against an unarmed opponent, so therefore the use of weapon skill in an opposed check sounds reasonable. Grapple - if performed successfully - has the potential of ending the fight pretty much then and there, once the grappler has managed to pin and unhelm his opponent, so the detriment of having to overcome an opponent's weapon skill is not unreasonable.

However, in the 4th edition, Grapple was its own separate skill. I still use the 4th edition and the Grapple skill as well, and you might want to add that feature as well if you feel a need for better grapplers. Be warned though, a high Grapple skill can be a complete game breaker.

Since I use the Grapple skill, I tend to be harsher towards fighter's who do not possess the ability. A warrior has the opinion of using either his Grapple skill or halved STR (STR instead of DEX, because people untrained in grappling tend to rely more on strength than mobility).

Grappling / wrestling moves were apparently quite popular in the late Medieval fighting manuals, in particular the use of half-swording to use your sword as a lever to hook the blade or the crossguard around your opponent and then lever him into the ground, where he could then be dispatched with daggers through the visor or a mate with a pollaxe / poleaxe. Then again, this was the era of the full plate armor, when the sword wouldn't do much, just glance off the steel plate. Also to note that you were supposed to parry with your sword when closing and not just let the other guy flail away at you.

If you do wish to model that, you might allow the initial contest to be done with a Sword (or pretty much any bigger melee weapon skill). But this will quickly move away from Mallory's 'and they stood there, trading blows, until the sun rose and set...' day long combat to a 'They met in a clash of arms. And they grappled and he threw his opponent down, stabbing him manfully through the visor. "Right, my squire, the knave is no more and I may continue my breakfast. Is my coffee still hot?" ' (not that they had coffee in those days in Britain, but you get my point, I am sure).

We have not seen almost any grappling in our campaign, but this might be because it is inherently the 'poor' option due to the DEX roll (I think highest DEX is around 11, while highest Sword is 21). I think the only times we have actually seen grappling was when a knight was trying to prevent a Saxon lady from stabbing him with a dagger (he having been the Saxons' hostage until then, and unarmed), and another time when the group of knights was trying to tackle and subdue a maddened fellow knight, who was running in the forest nekkid (so again, unarmed, and the attempt to capture unharmed).

I'm somewhat aware of the grapply nature of medieval combat. (I watch videos on the you tubes, making me the internet equivalent of an expert on all things medieval)

I'm not really approaching this from a realism perspective - I recognize and appreciate the fact that the system is attempting to recreate a literary tradition rather than reality. That's why I was curious what the literary tradition actually was here.

I'm not really approaching this from a realism perspective - I recognize and appreciate the fact that the system is attempting to recreate a literary tradition rather than reality. That's why I was curious what the literary tradition actually was here.


It is present in Le Morte d'Arthur on a few occasions. King Arthur grapples with King Pellinore in their duel at the crossroads after Pellinore broke his sword, although it ends rather poorly for Arthur, as Merlin has to intervene to save his royal behind. Also, Sir Turquine has the habit of tucking his enemies under his armpit and riding off with them (He had a respectable Grapple skill in his 4th ed. stats). There may well be other instances that I have forgotten.

EDIT: Also, in Land of Giants you have Beowulf with his Grapple 30 and STR 30, who rips off monsters' arms and crushes men to death with his bare hands. Not exactly knightly stuff, but Beowulf is an Anglo-Saxon story, and there are certainly Saxons galore in Pendragon, ready to mangle your PK's into a bloody pulp in their big, meaty hands (not that they cannot acchieve that with their battle-axes, mind you) ::)