I just purchased Pendragon as part of the "Bundle of Holding" (along with the Book of the Estate) and am looking forward to running my first GPC. Originally we used the "Army" rules on page 32 of KAP 5.1 to fill out the "Army" section of the player's Character Sheet (Old Knights, Middle Aged Knights, Levy, etc.). One of my players ended up with quite a large number of these Knights (the max allowed with each roll) and I'm a little confused about how these Knights are paid for and where they live.

As I understand the Book of the Estate rules, each of my starting PKs are "Vavasours" that have been granted an estate valued at 10 libra. This 10 libra allows them to support one Knight, 2 footmen for his army, and 1 footman for his garrison. There is no way they could pay for an army the size listed on the character sheet, so do I just throw that section of the KAP 5.1 rules out or am I misunderstanding what that represents? Perhaps these other Knights are Household Knights for Earl (Count?) Roderick who live at one of the Earl's holdings and are using their "Love (Family)" passion to help defend their family manor when it is trouble? How would I figure out the Levy size in that case?

Another question along the same lines is that if a PK were to marry and gain additional manors (but has not been promoted to Banneret), I know that financially he would be able to support additional Knights (using the 1 Knight per 10 libra manor ratio) but as a Vavasour would he be allowed to? I guess my question is whether or not a Vavasour is allowed to support Household Knights of his own (that live at one of the PK's manors) without being first made a Banneret. If I read the rules correctly, a PK will usually need at least 3 manors to qualify as a Banneret (which interestingly also appears to be the minimum value in libra for an estate) so when he is in that interim stage with 2-3 manors (or a small estate) but no Banneret title, is the PK allowed to support Household Knights that live at his enfoffed manor?

On a side note, I *love* the Book of the Estate. First of all, it's gorgeous and easy to read. I hope that style is used for future supplements. I'd love to see a KAP 6.0 done entirely in that style! Second, I love the simplicity of the rules. I admit that I sort of got cross eyed my first read through but once it clicked, I really appreciate the simplicity it offers. One of my players is particularly interested in the estate management aspects of the game (he equates it to "base building" in X-COM), so I feel this will give him the chance to explore this aspect of the game without getting bogged down in too much number crunching. Now I just need to get the "Book of the Entourage" so that I can explain what all of those officers actually do in gameplay terms. :)

RE the army.

The 'army' on the player knight character sheet from the main rule book (KAP) is not the same thing as the 'army' a lord has in Book of the Estate (BoE). The army from character creation (and on the character sheet) includes the PK's relatives (cousins, brother, uncles). They are not his vassals or in his mesnie. They don't have to fight for him, but they are likely to support him in a conflict for the benefit of the greater family. They have their own lands or are in some lord's household. Your PK doesn't have anything to do with them financially, nor can he require them to fight for him.

The army in BoE are the PKs followers. BoE does not distinguish between vassals and bachelor knights, but most are assumed to be bachelor knights with the lord holding most land in demesne. You just support 1 knight, 1 squire, 2 footmen and 1 garrison man per £10. Don't worry about the details, mechanically at least.

You PK can have as many followers as he can support. They can all be bachelor knights. He is under no obligation to grant out his lands. His lands do come with a servitum debitum, which is the minimum # of knights he must supply to his lord. So if he gained more land with servitum debitum he would be required to support more knights.

RE Titles. BoE treats titles differently, and more historically, than the KAP. I'd just go with BoE.

NT

RE the army.

The 'army' on the player knight character sheet from the main rule book (KAP) is not the same thing as the 'army' a lord has in Book of the Estate (BoE).

Quite right. Note to self: on the next-generation character sheet, change that "Army" to "Kinsmen," or "Family Knights" or some such. pen to other suggestions for a better label.


Best,


M.

The 'army' on the player knight character sheet from the main rule book (KAP) is not the same thing as the 'army' a lord has in Book of the Estate (BoE)...Your PK doesn't have anything to do with them financially, nor can he require them to fight for him.

Fantastic. I was starting to suspect this might be the case, I appreciate the clarification!


You PK can have as many followers as he can support. They can all be bachelor knights. He is under no obligation to grant out his lands. His lands do come with a servitum debitum, which is the minimum # of knights he must supply to his lord. So if he gained more land with servitum debitum he would be required to support more knights.

I'm still a little confused about how this works. I understand that if a PK had 3 manors granted to him by Earl Roderick, his minimum "servitum debitum" would typically be providing the Earl with 3 Knights (including himself). I assume that because the PK is not a Banneret, the "extra" 2 Knight "followers" that his lands support would swear fealty to the Earl, not the PK. If that is the case, would the "follower" Knights be allowed to live at the PK's lands and act as the PK's followers (Vassals in all but name)? Specifically, could the non Banneret PK name one of those Knights as an officer for his estate (perhaps his Steward) or take them with him as he adventures?

Right now I'm guessing that until the PK became a Banneret/Minor Baron, the PK would have to pay the cost for the 2 "follower" Knights, but that the "follower" Knights would move out of the PK's demesne and live as Household Knights serving Earl Roderick. Basically, they would be the Earl's Knights that the PK was responsible for paying for. The whole "40 Days Service" concept would not apply to these Knights. Basically, the PK would be financially responsible for supporting them on the Earl's behalf in exchange for being allowed to add Manor's #2 and #3 to his demesne. Is that correct or am I missing something?

Thanks again guys!

The two extra knights would swear fealty to the PK because he is the one paying them. His title doesn't matter. A knight can have more than one manor and household and vassal knights of his own without being a banneret.

Morien is right.

Also, if the PK was granted 3 manors for 10 libra each, two things could happen. He could either put household knights in the two extra ones to take care of them, or he could sub-enffeof them to the two knights. The agreement for granted land is that the PK needs to provide X amount of knights to his lord's service for each 10 libra worth of land/manor (in generalistic terms, of course). This knights are all under the command of the PK, not the PK's lord. If those knights are household or sub-enffeofed is irrelevant as far as that goes. But sub-enfeoffing has its advantages and disadvantages, and the lord that grants you the 3 manors may not see you sub-enffeofing with good eyes.

To that I would add that most land his held from the king or very powerful lords and barons in the Early Phase, at least.


T.

Thanks guys, that makes sense. In reading the KAP 5.1 rules, I was getting the impression that once a Knight had other Knights that swore fealty to him, he became a "Knight Lord." The lowest grade of "Knight Lord" is defined as a Banneret (KAP 5.1, p17) so I assumed that the only way a PK could have another Knight swear fealty would be by earning the grade Banneret. Clearly that was an incorrect assumption. Fortunately, I am guessing the vocabulary is getting cleaned up a bit in Book of the Estate (as Eothar pointed out).

In BOTE it is clarified that a "Banneret" is a title given for extreme heroism in battle. BOTE further defines a Banneretcy as lands held by a Banneret that are sufficient to support 10 Knights (which the Book of Battle defines as an Eschille). Thus, I am getting the impression that using the BOTE rules, the term Banneret is primarily a military title given to an individual expected to fund and lead an Eschille of Knights. If this individual did not already own the lands necessary to do this, he might also be given a Banneretcy which is basically an estate valued at around 100 libra (does the Estate immediately become defined as a Banneretcy if a Lord gains the title Banneret?). Furthermore, none of this really takes place until the time of King Arthur, so in the early game, you really just have Landed Vassal Knights with Manors and Poor/Minor Barons with Estates (from the King) that owe a "servitum debitum" to their Liege. Whether or not a Knight has Vassals of his own has nothing to do with his rank or Title, it's all defined by the terms of his agreement for the lands he is given/granted.

Does that seem right? Thanks again guys, this really helps! 8)

All titles must be specifically granted, usually by the king
(As Taliesin pointed out, it is rare for anyone but the great lords (Counts, etc) to subinfeudate
A knight may hold much land and have many knights under him, but not be granted a title

Thanks Greg!