I've a question about marriage...

In my particular campaign, 510, the new Earl of Salisbury has had to swear loyalty to the Duke of Silchester. Lady Jenna was due to marry the Earl of Marlboro, but she's fallen for one of the player Knights.

So what happens if they want to marry and the Earl says no? Can they appeal to the Duke? Can they then appeal to the King?

I found a similar question that focussed on just the one lord and mentioned him holding a court of his vassals. But that didn't answer if they could appeal up to their Lord's Lord (and so on).

Thanks in advance for any replies.

If Jenna is already betrothed to the Earl of Marlborough, it will take a lot to overturn that match in favor for a 'simple' knight. While the Duke and the King could in principle weigh in (as Lieges of the Earls), they probably wouldn't without a very very good reason to piss off the Earls by meddling in their marriage contracts. Even if the Earl of Salisbury agrees for the match under pressure, it is unlikely that he would give the Up-Avon estates (or whatever he had intended to give as Jenna's dowry) to a mere knight, as they were intended to lure a rich, powerful, politically useful husband for Jenna. Especially as he is probably grinding his teeth the whole time.

In principle, a woman cannot be forced to marry a man if she doesn't want to. That is the Church law. So as long as Jenna is willing to defy her brother, who'd be likely to take out his ire on the player knight, correctly identifying him as the culprit, then the marriage to the Earl of Marlborough doesn't happen.

They could elope, but at that point the knight is likely to lose all his lands in Salisbury, etc. However, that might make for a good story: let the couple elope, Earl Robert throws a tantrum and confiscates all the lands of the player knight. But luckily, in 510 there is King Arthur who is in need for experienced knights (as mercenaries, if need be) and there is loads of battles ahead for the player knight to show off his worth. By 514, the player knight might be eligible for the Round Table, which probably would prompt King Arthur to smooth things over with Earl Robert. Or at the latest, after Badon Hill. Besides, it would be a useful test of the player knight's ardor for Lady Jenna: Choose, Sir Knight, the lady or your lands! :)

What a great answer, Morien! Thanks for your ongoing and ever-insightful contributions to the community!


T.

You are quite welcome, Taliesin. Like I have mentioned before, I like to yammer on about Pendragon. :) Not that my thoughts and opinions are canon, by any means, nor am I a professional historian. Just a guy who likes to RP in medieval-ish settings and likes to read a lot of history.

The bit about the lady having the final say... Of course, proper young ladies ought to be raised with the understanding that they will marry for their families' sake, and romantic love is something that belongs in songs. Fathers and guardians could also apply pressure on the recalcitrant girls. And there were cases in medieval history of heiresses being kidnapped, forcibly married by their captors and then having the marriage 'consumated' (i.e. raped). "Yes yes, my new wife is quite happy. No, she cannot come downstairs. Why? The poor thing fell and broke her ankle, so she really shouldn't be using the stairs."

Eleanor of Aquitaine was in grave danger of that in the brief period of her 'freedom' between having her marriage to King Louis VII annulled and marrying Henry II Plantagenet. I think she evaded like two or three kidnapping attempts on her way from Paris to Poitiers. But such is the lot of the most eligible and notoriously beautiful heiress of her time in the Middle Ages.

Of course, another story idea re: the situation in Oly's question: Jenna could marry the Earl of Marlborough, and the two lovers could pine for one another. And then in 514 Guinevere comes to the stage. I forget how long it took her to start espousing the Courtly Amor, but that might give the two lovers the opening they need, although they'd have to be extremely careful. Also, if the GM is merciful, he can let the Earl of Marlborough die at Badon Hill. Extra tragic points if the PK dies, too! (I am such an evil GM for even saying that...)

Thank you for your answers.

So, in brief, the lady could refuse to marry and the Earl could then punish his vassal by taking his lands away. Can a Lord take away a vassals land whenever they wish?

They could appeal to their Lord's lord (or higher) but that person is unlikely to do anything. However if they were to order their vassal to do something and that vassal refuse then they too could seize lands and titles as punishment?

Thanks again. I've got plenty of story ideas for this now, my only questions now seem to be about what a Lord can order his vassal to do and what punishments could be given if they disobeyed.

In principle, a woman cannot be forced to marry a man if she doesn't want to. That is the Church law. So as long as Jenna is willing to defy her brother, who'd be likely to take out his ire on the player knight, correctly identifying him as the culprit, then the marriage to the Earl of Marlborough doesn't happen.



If I remember correctly, by KAP rules a Lord can command a Lady to marry up to her third marriage. If she is widowed a third time she then has the right to refuse further marriage.

The historical rights may be different, depending on period, region, etc.

So, in brief, the lady could refuse to marry


Yes, although her brother could then lock her up in a tower until she 'comes to her senses' or some such.



and the Earl could then punish his vassal by taking his lands away. Can a Lord take away a vassals land whenever they wish?


No. Just the lady's refusal to marry would not be enough. However, if the Lord is sneaky, he set a trap for the lovers, trying to catch them alone in a garden or some such, and THEN, with witnesses, accuse the knight for having seduced his sister. And then punish the knight for that. Probably not quite enough to strip the knight of his lands (unless the sister has been 'spoiled' shall we say, in which case no punishment is harsh enough), but certainly enough to send him on a dangerous quest or even exile from Salisbury. Clemency then depends on whether or not Jenna agrees to marry the Earl of Marlborough...

Stripping a knight of his lands is a big step, and demands a significant infraction from the knight. Of course, the Earl always could threaten it.



They could appeal to their Lord's lord (or higher) but that person is unlikely to do anything. However if they were to order their vassal to do something and that vassal refuse then they too could seize lands and titles as punishment?


My yardstick is this:
If I were an uninvolved third party, who would I think is right?

A)
Earl: I am summoning you to war 40 days as per your oath of fealty.
Knight: Stuff it, I am busy.
-> Knight gets tossed out of his lands for betraying his oath, and likely degraded from knighthood, too.

B)
Earl: I need £100 'loan'. I will pay you back... oh, some time next century.
Knight: But my liege, I have no such funds!
Earl: Why you knave, you are unworthy of your lands! Begone with you, beggar!
-> Earl is facing the King with the knight's complaint & likely a 'rebellion' on part of his other vassal knights.

Eloping with the Earl's sister would constitute reason to strip the knight of his lands. Seducing, bedding and then claiming he has nothing to do with it would be grounds for the same and degradation, too.

If I remember correctly, by KAP rules a Lord can command a Lady to marry up to her third marriage. If she is widowed a third time she then has the right to refuse further marriage.

The historical rights may be different, depending on period, region, etc.


The Lord may command, and 9 times out of ten the woman will obey. However, by Church Law, a matrimony is not valid unless both parties agree to it. There are some historical cases of marriages being annulled on these grounds, even amongst commoners, during the Middle Ages. And of course, if the lady says no, the father/liege can bring lots of pressure to bear. Not the least of which is simply locking her up in solitary and refusing her to marry anyone else. He does have that right.

The point is that by the 3rd marriage, the lady gets to choose her own husband, without the interference from the Lord.

If the PK is a vassal of Earl Robert he should be in agony. He will have to counter his love for Jenna for his loyalty for his liege.
This should not be an easy choice. I as a GM will expect some hardships from the PK. How can he forgo his lieges wishes. Is not his word his bond?

As for trying to appeal to the Duke or the King. What would make them choose for the PK? If he has to choose between his vassal an Earl or a simple vavasour? It may of course be political interesting if the Duke has his designs for Marlboro himself. Maybe he has a family member he wishes to marry to the Earl of Marlboro. In that case he may help the PK.
And suppose the Duke forbids the marriage and it does not go through. Why would the Earl then marry Jenna to the PK? He could marry her to another just to spite the knight.

If the PK is a vassal of Earl Robert he should be in agony. He will have to counter his love for Jenna for his loyalty for his liege.
[snip]
And suppose the Duke forbids the marriage and it does not go through. Why would the Earl then marry Jenna to the PK? He could marry her to another just to spite the knight.


In complete agreement and just wanted to high-light those two points. Although I'd say that his Honor might have some bearing on the matter as well, as he did give his oath of fealty to the Earl, even if his personal Loyalty might be lacking. :)

I mean, they have already asked the Earl, and he said no. If they go over his helmet to the Duke, he is justifiably pissed at the knight for meddling, and certainly would not be in the correct frame of mind to shrug and bless the marriage between Jenna and the knight.

Eloping is starting to look better and better, if they wish to marry, but at that point, the Earl, IMHO, would be within his rights to confiscate the knight's lands. If for no other reason because he will be in self-imposed exile and unable to fulfil his knightly duties. And if he is stupid/honorable enough to come when summoned, unless he has some serious support from the other knights of Salisbury, I wouldn't blame the Earl for locking him up indefinitely. Might be better to stay away and try to do more heroics and wait for a chance to save the Earl's life... Which suggests another little thing that if the Earl dies, then Jenna's husband would be the next in line to inherit the Earldom... decisions, decisions... (and consequences!) :)

My two cents




If the PK is a vassal of Earl Robert he should be in agony. He will have to counter his love for Jenna for his loyalty for his liege.
[snip]
And suppose the Duke forbids the marriage and it does not go through. Why would the Earl then marry Jenna to the PK? He could marry her to another just to spite the knight.


In complete agreement and just wanted to high-light those two points. Although I'd say that his Honor might have some bearing on the matter as well, as he did give his oath of fealty to the Earl, even if his personal Loyalty might be lacking. :)


I mean, they have already asked the Earl, and he said no.
and don't ask twice!

If they go over his helmet to the Duke, he is justifiably pissed at the knight for meddling, and certainly would not be in the correct frame of mind to shrug and bless the marriage between Jenna and the knight.


The duke has no say in this matter
The knights holds his lands from Earl Robert

Eloping is starting to look better and better, if they wish to marry, but at that point, the Earl, IMHO, would be within his rights to confiscate the knight's lands.

I am petty sure of that
The earl is the custodian of his sister
Anyone who acts against his word has committed a real offense


If for no other reason because he will be in self-imposed exile and unable to fulfil his knightly duties. And if he is stupid/honorable enough to come when summoned, unless he has some serious support from the other knights of Salisbury, I wouldn't blame the Earl for locking him up indefinitely. Might be better to stay away and try to do more heroics and wait for a chance to save the Earl's life... Which suggests another little thing that if the Earl dies, then Jenna's husband would be the next in line to inherit the Earldom... decisions, decisions... (and consequences!) :)
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