Hi everyone,

First time posting here. I just started Year 485 of the campaign and during the Winter Phase one of the players rolled a Birth for a Sister in the family events. The only sister the knight has is not married. So, instead of re-rolling, I decided to roll with it. In this case, we have a noble woman who is not married and gave birth to a child. Would could the Knight do (if, indeed, he has the right to do anything)? Talk to his earl? Try to mediate a marriage between her and the knight who is the father (I decided it is a knight, although the player does not know this). What other ideas can I develop into a one or two short scene-vignette so the player can be involved?

In my game it was the PK wife's sister who had the child out of wedlock. PK adopted the child, and when he grew to be older arranged for the Earl to *gift* one of the PK's manors to the child with the idea that if he served the Earl well the gift would become a grant to the adopted child's son. Adopted child ended up dying without issue at Badon, so that part of the plot never came into being.

Having a child out of wedlock is very bad for the woman's honor (it basically ruins her as a 'bad woman', good luck getting her married to a knight afterwards). I think it is like -10 Honor, in Greg's webpage about Sex and Dishonor.

Here is how I'd deal with it...

1. Have the sister realize that she is pregnant (say around second or third month in).
2. Have her tearfully confess that to her brother (the PK) that Sir So-and-So seduced her. (I am assuming a seduction, not a rape.)
3. At this point, the PK's first reaction should be to march to the Knight so named and demand that the Knight marries the PK's sister. As long as they are married before the child is born, the child is not a bastard, and they can always claim that they were already betrothed (might even be true that promises of marriage were exchanged, which in Medieval times pretty much meant that they were married as far as Church and Law was concerned).
4. If the Knight says no, which I assume is likely in this case, whether he is married or simply disinclined to marry her, the PK has two options. One is 'take no prisoners' (5A), the other is more sneaky (5B).
5A. Claim that the Knight raped the sister and go for a duel of honor. Kill the bugger, or if he is still unwed, offer to save his life if he marries the sister (I would go for the former at this point, since it would unlikely be a happy marriage, with him being forced into it). This would remove at least part of the stain on the sister's honor.
5B. Find someone else to marry the sister and claim the child as his. Unlikely to be a (vassal) knight at this stage, for who wishes to raise another man's bastard as your own heir (if it is a boy)? However, might be possible to find a rich farmer or maybe a steward who'd still be a noble, albeit not a knight. Hmm. A household knight -might- work as well, if the PK has any, as it would give the household knight a chance to start his own family (after the bastard, of course). Of course, other PKs might be an option, too, if they allow themselves to be cajoled into this kind of situation. Hey, at least she is proven to be fertile, eh?

In any case, my point is that waiting until the child pops out pretty much seals the sister's fate. It is off to the nunnery for you! The PK should be allowed a chance to do something about it prior to this.

Morien, that was my assessment as well. A fight for the honor of the PK's sister seems the most logical thing to do if the 'offending' knight refuses to marry. I had already made up my mind that it was a knight that seduced the PK's sister and it was a legitimate seduction. She wasn't forced or anything. The 'offending' knight also doesn't know the PK's sister is pregnant. It will complicate matters when the knight is already promised to another girl. Perhaps his father will accept a nice dowry. Unfortunately, the PK just started as a vassal knight (this is year 485) so what would be a reasonable dowry?

It also occurred to me that the PK could try to, ahem, divert the 'rival' bride's dowry. Loss of a dowry can force the 'offending' knight's father to call the wedding off and be more inclined to hear the PK's arguments.

Instead of an accusation of rape, then, there should be an accusation that the knight led the poor, defenseless, weak-willed girl to believe that he was going to marry her. Which might even be true, as it is hard to think another reason for a medieval, virgin noblewoman to lose her virginity. They know the consequences!

Diverting the dowry (how?) would certainly help. But in the end, the pK can probably back it up with the threat of violence. I mean, in our campaign, this would certainly be grounds for a duel of honor, and even if the PK would kill the potential groom, that is still a better outcome than to let his sister to be branded as a slut. Who knows, the knight in question might even be interested in marrying the sister, since there is already a baby in the offing! Especially if the sister's dowry is high enough and the other family starts messing with their dowry offer. Or if the PK could arrange a better husband for the betrothed girl.

According to the Book of the Manor, the eldest daughter of the vassal knight would be £7-£9. A younger daughter would be £1-6. The wedding would be another £5. And the PK might be able to negotiate a payment plan, over a number of years, or just squeeze the money out of the peasants. That is what they are for! :P

Instead of an accusation of rape, then, there should be an accusation that the knight led the poor, defenseless, weak-willed girl to believe that he was going to marry her. Which might even be true, as it is hard to think another reason for a medieval, virgin noblewoman to lose her virginity. They know the consequences!

Yes, I thought the seduction angle would be more logical. Her love for him was never in question, but I like to complicate matters so even if they are in love, the knight's father has other plans for his son (to marry someone who would make a good alliance).


Diverting the dowry (how?) would certainly help.

If the dowry is in goods and money, the PK could "divert" the goods with the good ol' ambush and snatchin'


I mean, in our campaign, this would certainly be grounds for a duel of honor,

I like the duel of honor and that is certainly a possibility if the PK fails to make the knight or his father see his way.


According to the Book of the Manor, the eldest daughter of the vassal knight would be £7-£9. A younger daughter would be £1-6. The wedding would be another £5. And the PK might be able to negotiate a payment plan, over a number of years, or just squeeze the money out of the peasants. That is what they are for! :P


I'm assuming here that the income of £6-£8 per annum (from the KAP manual) is all tied up in supporting the PK and his family, correct? If he wants to pay a dowry, the money must come from extra money (taxes, ransoms, other sources), correct?

If the dowry is in goods and money, the PK could "divert" the goods with the good ol' ambush and snatchin'


Maybe, but that is also highway robbery. If caught, the PK can hang for it. Also, it is unlikely that such a 'loot' would go unguarded. If they share the same liege, the liege might get pissed off that his knights are bushwhacking one another instead of keeping the peace. If they do not, things might escalate if the PK is recognized and the wronged part goes to plead for help from his liege. In short, this is a rather risky maneuver.



I'm assuming here that the income of £6-£8 per annum (from the KAP manual) is all tied up in supporting the PK and his family, correct? If he wants to pay a dowry, the money must come from extra money (taxes, ransoms, other sources), correct?


£6 per annum per manor, all of which goes to supporting the knight (+ family or steward). Normal taxation of the peasantry is already included. Anything extra needs to come from better than average harvests, loot from raids/battles, ransoms, treasure found, rewards gained, loans from monelenders (dishonorable and expensive) or squeezing the peasants (max 3 times per year, £1d6 each and a host of bad trait checks).

I assume the size of the dowry will be part of the negotiations. You could play this out some. There are some arguments that could lower the dowry (loss of honor for the wife's family, unknightly behavior), others could raise the dowry (knight's family had him promised to another, the knight was caught in her wiles, both parties accepted the sex)

There were some strange medieval ideas about rape. If a child was born than it could not be rape and the woman had enjoyed the sex. So crying rape could be seen as odd.

There were some strange medieval ideas about rape. If a child was born than it could not be rape and the woman had enjoyed the sex. So crying rape could be seen as odd.


Good catch.

It apparently crops up in 13th century, during King Edward I's reign, in a legal manuscript called Fleta:
"If, however, the woman should have conceived at the time alleged in the appeal, it abates, for without a woman's consent she could not conceive."

In any case, deflowering a noble maiden would certainly be cause to bring the hammer down on the offending knight, regardless of whether or not she got pregnant as the consequence.

Granted, it would be best to try and solve the issue peacefully. Assuming I would be the PK...

1. I'd get all the family knights and my allied knights (other PKs, hopefully) together and then pay a friendly visit to the father of the offending knight, to politely demand the marriage between his son and my sister.

2. If I am unmarried, I'd suggest that I'd marry the girl that the offending knight was originally promised to. Her dowry would let me make good of the dowry of my sister, at least in part, and a double wedding might alleviate some of the wedding costs, too. As a vassal knight already, without heirs, I am certainly a desirable catch so I would expect that the father of the bride would be amenable as I show up with my 'posse' to suggest this to him, with the father of the groom's company/approval. (If I am already married, bad luck! In this case, I'd try to matchmake between one of my PK friends and the bride in question, and maybe ask a loan from a friend as far as the dowry goes. And squeeze-squeeze-squeeze the peasants for this good cause!)

3. The posse is also a visible reminder of how good a friend I could be, or how fierce an enemy. Assuming a 'normal' sized group of 4 PKs, that is already what, 20% of the Salisbury's vassal knights. Clearly, I am a force to be reckoned with, despite my youth.

4. The dowries could be negotiated: I could accept a smaller dowry from my new bride-to-be, whilst offering a bit more for my 'ruined' sister. After all, it is just money, whilst the family honor needs to be protected at all costs.

5. Outright threats of physical violence would be the last resort. "Nice hall, must be quite old... You know, old, dry timber like this is very flammable. Would be a shame to see it go up in flames..." Not only would the outcome of any duel or a feud be in doubt, but it would also publicise my sister's shame.

6. Alternatively, could try to marry her down in ranks. Serves the little hussy right for allowing herself be seduced, would result in lower dowry, and be much less work. I'd probably still go with Plan A to start with, if it has any chance of working.

1. I'd get all the family knights and my allied knights (other PKs, hopefully) together and then pay a friendly visit to the father of the offending knight, to politely demand the marriage between his son and my sister.

Nice one. I'll leave it up to the player though I can certainly suggest it.



2. If I am unmarried, I'd suggest that I'd marry the girl that the offending knight was originally promised to. [snip]

I like this a lot. Again, up to the player, though an NPC can certainly suggest it. Perhaps the 'offending' knight is swayed by the PK's words and marries his daugher IF the PK marries the other girl. There are a lot of variables but, at least, the player can make his own decision.


4. The dowries could be negotiated: I could accept a smaller dowry from my new bride-to-be, whilst offering a bit more for my 'ruined' sister. After all, it is just money, whilst the family honor needs to be protected at all costs.

The player is already considering squeezing the peasants to get a dowry if it comes to that. I don't have Book the Estate. Morien, I assume the following part was from that book?



Anything extra needs to come from better than average harvests, loot from raids/battles, ransoms, treasure found, rewards gained, loans from monelenders (dishonorable and expensive) or squeezing the peasants (max 3 times per year, £1d6 each and a host of bad trait checks).

The sister could also go to a nunnery for her dishonor and the illegitimate child turned to someone of the PK's trust (be that a peasant family or any other family). Later, he could be adopted as the PK's illegitimate own child. That would certainly be more acceptable to society. I shall have to consider this. Good ideas so far.

The player is already considering squeezing the peasants to get a dowry if it comes to that. I don't have Book the Estate. Morien, I assume the following part was from that book?



Anything extra needs to come from better than average harvests, loot from raids/battles, ransoms, treasure found, rewards gained, loans from monelenders (dishonorable and expensive) or squeezing the peasants (max 3 times per year, £1d6 each and a host of bad trait checks).


Book of the Manor, actually, since I prefer using that (especially in the case of a couple of manors). I think in Book of the Estate you get what you get each year and harvests are handwaved to be average (peasants pay if the harvest is worse, peasants pay less if the harvest is great, I think).

I forgot to consider this. Assuming the PK's mother married again, who is the PK's sister living with? And will this influence who pays the dowry in case she marries? Is the new father responsible for her or is the PK as the oldest brother?

I forgot to consider this. Assuming the PK's mother married again, who is the PK's sister living with? And will this influence who pays the dowry in case she marries? Is the new father responsible for her or is the PK as the oldest brother?


The PK's sister is not the new husband's daughter, so normally, he is not paying anything and the PK (as the eldest brother and the head of the family) is responsible for everything, including the full dowry. In practice, it can depend on the new husband's Generous, Love(Wife), when they got married and so forth.

As to where the sister would have lived, again depends a bit on the circumstances. The default is that she is living with the PK. However, if the PK's father died some time ago, whilst the sister was still a child, I could see her living with her mother in the new family. Or having recently done so, until her brother inherited the family manor, anyway. Depends a bit on the family history. Or she may have lived with the PK in whatever foster parents were assigned as guardians for the children, if not the mother and her new husband.

In our campaign, the girls start their own 'lady-in-waiting training' when they are 12, which lasts until they are 18. This often involves them being sent to be fostered by a friendly family, especially if the mother has died and there is no lady in the house. If the mother is alive, she might wish to instruct her daughter herself, or the brother's wife, if experienced and willing enough, might be doing that. So it depends on the family situation.

(Note that technically, the still living mother is entitled to the widow's portion of the manor, 1/3rd of the income. Thankfully, with Greg's new 1 manor = £10 = Rich maintenance scheme for vassal knights (Book of the Estate), this is still survivable, even though it would drop the knight & his new family to Ordinary maintenance. Or you can rule that the Count made it a precondition before allowing the widow to marry again that she (and her new husband) would waive her right to the widow's portion when her son would inherit the manor. Makes it easier all around.)

Just another option to add to the mix. As far as I know (and play): Usually the Liege lord becomes the guardian first. He then can elect to appoint another one. He usually does this to related family (uncles), but can also have the new husband of the wife perform that job. So the daughter can also have lived at the court of the liege lord. especially if she is marriageable when the father died.

So the daughter can also have lived at the court of the liege lord. especially if she is marriageable when the father died.


Yes, all that Cornelius said. However, since we know that the girl has not married yet, and has an older brother who is already a vassal knight, it would be very strange (at least in our campaign), if the brother wouldn't be her guardian now. The only thing I can think of, off-hand, why this would be the case is if the girl in question would be a heiress (via her mom, and the brother is a step-brother) in her own right. But that is not the case here. Your Campaign May Vary, of course. :)

So the daughter can also have lived at the court of the liege lord. especially if she is marriageable when the father died.


Yes, all that Cornelius said. However, since we know that the girl has not married yet, and has an older brother who is already a vassal knight, it would be very strange (at least in our campaign), if the brother wouldn't be her guardian now. The only thing I can think of, off-hand, why this would be the case is if the girl in question would be a heiress (via her mom, and the brother is a step-brother) in her own right. But that is not the case here. Your Campaign May Vary, of course. :)

Your right of course. ;)