Reading through the rule for random marriage during the winter phase in KAP 5.1 p109, me and one of my players started wondering if there was any reason for a PK not to try random marriage every year. If they miss their roll, nothing bad happens. I they succeed, they can marry or "met candidate for marriage, still waiting". If while waiting, the PK meets someone in-game that's more interesting, well he just have to forget about the person "still waiting" and go for his new love.
Maybe that's normal, as historically marriage was something desired by most people but I still find it odd.

I thought about some house-rules to counter-balance this.

1. Making an attempt cost 1L wether it works or not. Gifts, clothing's, paying troubadours to sing their love, etc…
2. If the PK "dumps" his "waiting" lady it could lead to some important in-game consequences.
3. If you miss a Courtesy roll you have to marry right now. That means that if the PK wants to play the Random Marriage game, he has to be serious and not do it just in case he doesn't find someone better through role-play.
4. Allow only one roll but modify it according to Glory, APP, etc… So when the player decides to roll that means he wants to marry NOW.

Correct the Random Marriage Table to match the current economic system, and the benefits of waiting start to fade pretty quickly. See Greg's page:
http://www.gspendragon.com/marriage.html

At least in 5.0 Edition the Random Marriage Table was WAY overgenerous with manor or two as a dowry... The above corrected table in Greg's pages is much more playable and keeps the manorial bloat under control.

Also, impress on your players that getting married quickly to produce heirs is much more preferable to +£2 in dowry.

EDIT:
But yes, currently there is no reason to stop rolling. And I forgot that there are manors out there to be gained, too, randomly. Ick. :P

One easy 'fix' would be that a failed Courtesy roll resets the counter back to 0. And a fumbled means a crossbow wedding at +0 modifier. :P

Reading through the rule for random marriage during the winter phase in KAP 5.1 p109, me and one of my players started wondering if there was any reason for a PK not to try random marriage every year. If they miss their roll, nothing bad happens.

Wow, I sure didn't write that rule clearly!
Once you ask, you get the wife that is chosen.
There is no turning her away and waiting for a better choice.
If my players did that then they have just badly insulted the would-be bride's family and have made a permanent enemy.
Furthermore, you also just bagged your own lord, who went to all the trouble to negotiate the arrangements and left with mud on his face. Not a good idea!
Such, at least, was the intent.

Greg, the question is not with the random marriage roll itself. That is explained clearly that it is all or nothing. If you back out once you have rolled on the table, you are in a heap of trouble.

The issue is with the Courtesy roll leading up to it. KAP 5.0, p. 109:
"You can wait for as many years as you want, if there is no pressure from your lord.
For each year you make a successful Courtesy roll but choose to wait for marriage, add a +1 modifier to the d20 die roll on the Random Marriage table when you finally do roll. (If you fail your Courtesy roll during any year, you do not gain the +1 for that year.)"

This clearly implies that the PK can roll Courtesy each year, and accumulate those successes. Failure just means he doesn't get the +1 for that year, and since it wasn't successful, he doesn't get to roll, either.

So the question becomes, why wouldn't you wish to start rolling for Courtesy as soon as you can, to get as big a bonus as you may, when there is no downside to it? I admit I can see the point that years of loyal service and jockeying for position at court ought to be reflected by a 'better' wife roll. But this has the unfortunate tendency, apparently (we have never used the random marriage table in our campaign, since the old one was way too generous), causing PKs to put off marriage in hopes of gaining heiresses.

Thank you Morien for quoting the rule and sorry for not being clear in the first place.

Also as Greg pointed out there could be some vast repercussions if you decide to do the random marriage procedure and then not follow through.
Some of my players want to start doing Courtesy rolls accumulating the +1 each year (if they succeed) and if during those years they meet an interesting candidate through role-play they would just never do the Random Marriage roll and go with their new love.

It doesn't bother me so much that you could accumulate 'brownie points' with the Lord. The problem currently is, in my opinion, that the payoff is a bit too high (definitely with KAP, and still with Greg's adjusted rolls). If you wait 10 years, you might be rolling with +10, and have 50% chance of an heiress with a manor. If you roll at +0, you might end up with £1d6 dowry, much less attractive proposition, I am sure you agree.

I would rather use Loyalty Lord than Courtesy for that roll. The higher your Loyalty Lord, the more times you succeed in demonstrating how loyal a vassal/household knight you are, the better the chance that the Lord will exert himself on your behalf.

I'd also add modifiers on how a desirable match you are. A household knight without lands might not be high on the list, but if he is a RTK with 10 000+ Glory, he looks loads better. A vassal knight without heirs is a much better prospect for a father-in-law (gets his own grandchildren as vassal knights), but an established, high Glory older knight who is well-connected politically might have other merits.

Let me work on this for a bit... :P

I like these!
Also, the yearly increase assumes that it is a normal campaign (i.e. there's a good chance your knight will be killed every year)



I would rather use Loyalty Lord than Courtesy for that roll. The higher your Loyalty Lord, the more times you succeed in demonstrating how loyal a vassal/household knight you are, the better the chance that the Lord will exert himself on your behalf.

I'd also add modifiers on how a desirable match you are.

Glad to hear you approve of the ideas, Greg...

So here is my thinking...

1) Heiresses are quite rare. If there are 20-30 vassal manors in Salisbury, and say that 1 in 6 of those manors are held by the Count for Heiresses. That is 3-6 heiresses per generation, more or less. Of course, big battles can cause more manors to become 'available', but it is still likely a low number. Hence, I don't think an Heiress should ever be just one random dice roll away. The opportunity to win one, though, might open up with a random roll...

2) The Count doesn't have much incentive to let some no-good vassal knight gobble up more manors. No, he will want to marry those heiresses off to men of proven loyalty and valor. Men that he can trust implicitly. Whose mettle is without question. In other words, mainly household knights (HHKs) that have already made a career in his service. Of course, vassal knights who have proven themselves in his service would make it list, too, but there is no reason a priori that he'd prefer them over the household knights. After all, that is one great lure to the household knights, that some day they might be rewarded with a manor of their own, via an heiress or not.

Alright. So the two assumptions above mean that:
1) Heiresses are rare.
2) Vassal and household knights start at the same line in the Lord's favor.

On the other hand:
3) Fathers do want to marry their daughters as high up in status as possible. So they'd prefer to marry their daughters to vassal knights, hopefully ones without any children of their own, so that the father's grandchildren will be the heirs.

Modifiers:
Lord's Favor: +1 / successful Loyalty Lord (1 try / year, cumulative), +GM's choice for significant past heroics and service (like saving the Lord from certain death might be +10), +3 if Loyalty Lord is 16+.
Father's Favor: +5 if a vassal knight, +10 total if you are a childless vassal knight.
Glory (modifies both Favor's): +1 / 1000 Glory.

You can try to find a wife either through your own status, in which case use the Father's Favor + Glory as a modifier (who is the most eligible lady offered to you), or you can ask the Lord to select a wife for you, in which case use Lord's Favor + Glory as a modifier. Spurning a lady offered by her family causes an insult to them, consequences of which are for the GM to decide. Telling the Lord that his selection is not good enough is a grievous insult against the Lord's judgement, and has serious consequences.

d20 Rank (Daughter of...) Dowry Glory
1-5 ...an Esquire £1d3+1 10
6-10 ...a Household Knight £1d6 50
11-15 ...a wealthy commoner £3d6 0
16-20 ...a Vassal Knight* £1d6 100
21-30 ...a Vassal Knight, Eldest £1d3+6 100
21-30 For HHK: a Widow £2 / yr. 1000
31-40 Vassal Knight, Heiress**1 manor 200
41+ ...a Lord, younger** 1d3 manors 500
* = roll 1d3+1 to determine daughter number
** = Should involve a quest or past heroics for which this is the reward.

What do you think? I based the Glory amounts mainly off Greg's table as a basis for discussion. But they are clearly wrong, as the woman inherits 10% from the Father's Glory to start with. Hence, the Glory amounts for a knight's daughter ought to be between 100 - 300. Maybe 1d6+1*50, giving the average of 200-250, which implies Father's Glory of 2000+. Sounds about right for an older knight with marriageable daughters. Add +50 for the Heiress or +100 for being a bigger catch? For the Lord's younger daughter, you could just ask the GM. :P

I am assuming here that the Lord would pick up the tab for the Household Knight's family, if he has given a permission to marry. The wife in question would act as a lady-in-waiting for the Lord's wife, etc. Thus, that £2/yr. for the Widow's portion could be put aside for a son's knighting or a daughter's dowry.

For a Loyalty 16+ HHK, with 20 years of loyal service (say succeeding 80% of the time for +16 modifier), and Glory bonus of +5 (not an insane number), he'd be rolling at +24. Chances are pretty good that there would be an heiress in his future!

Bit iffy about allowing marrying into the Lord's family, actually. Could change that to a Rich Heiress result.

I hope you guys are planning on summarizing all this (once the dust settles into) one handy-dandy post!


T.

Not sure I would like to have a rich heiress or daughter of a lord in a random table. If a PK wants to get such a prize I would like to play it out. Let them suck up to the father or lord and have them think how to persuade the would be family in law to accept such a marriage.

Not sure I would like to have a rich heiress or daughter of a lord in a random table. If a PK wants to get such a prize I would like to play it out. Let them suck up to the father or lord and have them think how to persuade the would be family in law to accept such a marriage.


I quite agree. But if you noticed, I did include a ** to note that this result should involve a quest or past heroics. And no one says you shouldn't RP it. Getting a Rich Heiress (41+) result would require +11 Glory Bonus (11000 Glory), Childless Vassal Knight (+10) AND a roll of 20 on 1d20. In other words, good luck having that happen. Especially since you only get to roll once without making an enemy if you back out. The Heiress -result is easier, but it does make sense that the Father would seek to marry his only child and daughter off to a man famous for his chivalry and skill at arms. Note that in this case, the father is still alive, and might continue to be alive for quite some time. And he might not be willing to just give her away. It would be an adventure on its own.

Alternatively, it can be a reward for a glorious household knight, who has spent his life in the service of his Lord. Imagine someone like William Marshal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Marshal,_1st_Earl_of_Pembroke). Arguably the most famous knight of his generation (at least in the Angevin Empire), and at the age of 43, got a Countess as a wife for his troubles. Rich Heiress is peanuts by comparison. :P

But lets see the modifiers:
Glory (say) 11 000: +11
20 years of loyal service: +16 + 3 (Loyalty 16+) = +19
Total modifier of +30 -> d20: 1-10 = Heiress, 11-20 = Rich Heiress.
Sounds about right to be, as a reward for a glorious, loyal household knight. And if he saves the Lord's life, another +10 to make that Rich Heiress a sure thing doesn't still seem out of a realm of possibility. It is pretty much a 'Game Won' ending for the household knight, after all.

EDIT:
Granted, the Loyal Service modifier might be a bit too high. What about giving -1 for each FAILED Loyalty roll? That would give additional -4 to the modifier, making it +15 instead of +19. And maybe cap it at +20? That would keep the Rich Heiress out of the way, unless you really are Glorious enough to merit consideration, or you really do something extraordinary for the Lord.

All you are saying is true and I agree with them. But I have those Players that can roll that score to get the rich heiress. But it is not the statistics or the chances. Its just that I feel a single die roll should not determine this.
As for the example. If I have a PK with 11k glory, and 20 years of loyal service I would probably invent the quest to gain the hand of a the rich heiress and not let it be handle with a single die roll. I would probably 'force' the wife upon him if he wants to refuse, just to make the story interesting.

On another note:
If you use a negative modifier for a failed loyalty roll the result could become disastrous. (-20 if you fail them all). This could be contradictory with the result of play. If you played out those 20 years I would suggest that the GM sets a modifier based on the actions of the PK and not a dice roll.

As for the example. If I have a PK with 11k glory, and 20 years of loyal service I would probably invent the quest to gain the hand of a the rich heiress and not let it be handle with a single die roll. I would probably 'force' the wife upon him if he wants to refuse, just to make the story interesting.


Like said, I haven't used the Random Marriage Table ever. I come up with Heiresses as needed (some estimation and random rolling to see if any are potentially around, or introduced as storyhooks deliberately).

The 31+ results (heiresses) would not mean that it is a done deal. That roll doesn't mean that you get to marry the heiress just like that, but you will have to complete the quest demanded by the Lord or the Father. Or you have just saved the Lord's life and asked a wife as a reward. I.e. you have already completed the quest, and the heiress wife is a reward just like another knight might get a manor without a wife attached.



If you use a negative modifier for a failed loyalty roll the result could become disastrous. (-20 if you fail them all). This could be contradictory with the result of play. If you played out those 20 years I would suggest that the GM sets a modifier based on the actions of the PK and not a dice roll.


Clearly, your Loyalty is very low and the Lord has taken a dislike on you. Stop rolling, please, at least until you have raised your Loyalty Lord! Also, you never HAVE to roll on the Random Marriage Table.

I admit liking that -1 on a fail, though, since it implies that if you are a Loyalty 10 chappie, you are NOT going to get rewarded with a wealthy wife, unless you manage to make yourself nice with the Lord by heroics in play. Also, the -1 makes it pretty much so that you need Loyalty 16+ to accumulate those high brownie points from the Lord, which is the way it should be. Not all household knights should marry high.

One downside of basing it fully on the RP'd events is that many groups have one adventure per year and it can be totally divorced from the Lord (and usually is, in the published adventures). Thus, they would not gain any benefit for that year at all, unless the GM specifically comes up with something else to let them make nice with the Lord.

I am not fully disagreeing with you, by the way. The way you describe things is how we actually deal with it in our campaign. There are certain Heiresses that the GM (me) introduces and then the PKs get to start working on the fathers / guardians / lieges to try and get a permission to marry, usually by performing quests or political support, etc. In this thread, I am talking about the different ways of using the Random Marriage Table and the roll per year mechanism to track how well you get along with the Lord 'off-screen'. And I think I already suggested adding modifiers for services rendered?