(This is a list of notes from the GM (myself) to my players that I tacked at the end of character generation email to help the players to build effective characters. Granted, you can build a different kind of a character, so this is in part of what I consider important for example in stats. Your mileage may vary. WARNING: Does contain some houserules, for example Chivalry not giving any benefit until the Round Table is established.)

GM notes on how to build an effective character:

1) STATS:
- You really, really want to have high (14+) SIZ. Trust me on this.
- You really, really want to have SIZ+STR of 27 or more, as this gives you the base damage of 5d6 with a sword, which is A LOT better than 4d6 (basically stopped by armor all the time). You could minmax to 6d6 if you wish, which is very good to have, but your other stats will be lower, then.
- It is very recommended to have CON 14+. High CON protects you from Major Wounds that are fight-enders, and which also lower one of your stats by one when you suffer such a grievous wound. High CON means that you will take Major Wounds much more rarely. CON 21 (achievable by a Cymric character) will almost NEVER take a Major Wound.
- STR influences damage, healing rate and movement rate. So it is very useful as well. Try to have SIZ+STR = 27 or more, and STR+CON = 25+ (since that gives you a healing rate of 3 which is HUGELY better than 2). Healing Rate 3 pretty much guarantees that you will probably survive from your wounds, whereas Healing Rate 2 might mean that you will slowly spiral down and die unless you get a really professional doctor. So yeah. Healing Rate 3. Don't leave home without it.
- DEX helps you to stay on your feet if a hard blow triggers a balance roll (i.e. the damage rolled is equal or more to your SIZ stat). High DEX might be a very powerful character as he would almost never lose his balance (and fighting from the ground sucks). However, many players have opted for high damage, instead.
- APP is very helpful for a character who intends to excel at court. So if you happen to roll high on APP, do keep that option in mind.

2) TRAITS:
- Chivalric traits: Energetic, Generous, Just, Modest, Merciful and Valorous. If you have the total of 80+, you are considered to be a chivalric knight and you will get some bonuses from that, ONCE the Round Table is established. Before that, it is might makes right and these won't give you any bonus.
- Energetic and Valorous are very good for all knights: you are active and brave, rather than lazy and cowardly.
- Just helps a lot if you intend to be a good, law-abiding lord for your peasants. However, if you are thinking of squeezing every last sack of grain from them, don't bother; you'll soon be Arbitrary and Selfish and Cruel anyway... Which can be its own reward, as you get more money from your peasants! (Until they run away / rebel.)
- Proud can be a 'good' trait, since it means you brag more about your adventures and might get extra Glory from that. However, it also means you are quick to take offense and will have to fight more duels.
- Religious traits depend if you are a Christian (Chaste, Forgiving, Modest, Merciful, Temperate) or a Pagan (Lustful, Energetic, Generous, Honest, Proud). If you get all those traits to 16+ (impossible at the start of the game), you gain bonuses. Pagans get +2 Healing Rate, while Christians get +6 Hit Points.

3) PASSIONS:
- Can be bothersome. It is good to have some high passions, but remember that a passion of 16+ will limit your options. Loyalty 16+ means that if your Lord orders something, you will do it (within reason; you wouldn't kill yourself on a lord's whim). Love (Family) 16+ means that you are always ready to defend your brothers, sisters and children. Honor 16+ means that you will not dirty tricks in duels, and so forth.

4) SKILLS:
- It is actually more cost-efficient to use that one 15 pick to raise one of your low skills, than to put it to Sword (which starts at 10 anyway). Or you could take another weapon (an axe or a mace is good, with the downside that they can break in the middle of combat, which sucks for you).
- It is very much recommended to have your main weapon skill at 15 straight from the beginning. It wouldn't hurt to have Lance 13+ and Horsemanship 13+ as well, but those you can improve later if you really need to.
- It is recommended that the player group will assign 'roles' for the different player characters. It is not nearly as useful to have five guys who all know Hunting at 15, as it to have one guy with Hunting 15 and other four knowing an unique skill each at 15.
- It is very much recommended that at least one player character has 15 in one of the following skills:
-- Awareness: Noticing things, how sharp your eyes and hearing is.
-- Hunting: Tracking and perhaps more importantly, navigating off the road! Generic survival skill.
-- Orate: Giving speeches (good for extra glory at court, too)
-- Courtesy: Minding your manners and being able to make a good first impression.
-- Intrigue: Courtly gossip. Very good at staying abreast on what is happening behind the scenes at court.
-- Battle: Tactics and leadership in battle. Perhaps not so critical for starting characters, as you will probably not start as commanders anyway, and will have time to learn.
-- First Aid: What it says. First Aid of 15 can literally be a life-saver, especially since there might not always be professional healers around.
- NOTE: Family characteristic that I have not yet mentioned might be able to help here. You get a bonus of +5 to +10 to one non-combat skill that is determined randomly. And yes, I will let you roll before you assign the skills and roles.

Good list.

In my game I did not make such a list, but most of the same issues were addressed during character generation with some additions:
1) Stats.
I usually try to get all players at a 5d6 damage, but I discourage them from having a 6d6 to start with.
In my game I have two houserules:
DEX is rolled to see if you can get a shield bonus with a partial success. So having a higher DEX is interesting.
Knockdown is calculated after armor. This makes people less likely to drop, and makes a high SIZ less necessary.

2 and 3) Traits and passions
I see them as the basic of a good Pendragon game and as such each one is important. And 'bad' traits are not always bad. For example in our last session the PKs captured some raiders and they wanted to question them. I had the PK roll a merciful vs cruel. With a cruel roll they would get more information.

Players may always decide to act contrary to what is rolled, but will automatically change their traits and passions accordingly.
So person with a Hate(Saxons) of 16+ who has rolled it successful and still decides to work with them the passion is immediately reduced by 1.

I always also mention that Pendragon is not always a 'logical' game. You can act contrary to what is known about you. It is a game of passion and each knight uses it to his advantage and doom in equal measure. Remember there is no Intelligence stat in this game.

4) Skills
In my game Folk lore and Intrigue are important as they give information during the spring court on how the people (folk lore) and nobility (intrigue) think and may act in the coming year.

DEX is rolled to see if you can get a shield bonus with a partial success. So having a higher DEX is interesting.
Knockdown is calculated after armor. This makes people less likely to drop, and makes a high SIZ less necessary.


Hmm. Doesn't it mean that you pretty much always get a major wound as you are getting knocked down? It makes Knockdown very rare, especially when you get to the later periods and better armor.

Have you considered taking the shield armor off the blow, not the full armor? To represent the hit being deflected by the shield and fancy footwork? That would allow, in effect, a skilled, nimble fighter add 6 to his SIZ for the knockdown purposes, while a more lumbering, bigger fighter would maybe get knocked down. Sorta midway between those two extremes.

DEX is rolled to see if you can get a shield bonus with a partial success. So having a higher DEX is interesting.
Knockdown is calculated after armor. This makes people less likely to drop, and makes a high SIZ less necessary.


Hmm. Doesn't it mean that you pretty much always get a major wound as you are getting knocked down? It makes Knockdown very rare, especially when you get to the later periods and better armor.

Have you considered taking the shield armor off the blow, not the full armor? To represent the hit being deflected by the shield and fancy footwork? That would allow, in effect, a skilled, nimble fighter add 6 to his SIZ for the knockdown purposes, while a more lumbering, bigger fighter would maybe get knocked down. Sorta midway between those two extremes.

Yes. Knockdowns are rare and are usually at the same moment as a major wound. Mostly from getting hit by a critical hit.
I have noticed that most players still go for a reasonable high SIZ, as it adds both to your damage as well as the hitpoints.
Remember also that a partial success does not yield an automatic +6 armor from the shield in my game.
It is in the end either a high DEX to prevent from being knocked down or a high DEX for using your shield.

Our argument was: If you have an average 5d6 damage. On average you do 17.5 damage. So with a SIZ of 18 you must roll in about 50% of the time. A SIZ 12 means you must roll much more often and makes it much less fun. changing it meant less knockdowns, but still a high DEX is advantageous as it means less damage.

Looking at your idea may be an option. A SIZ 12 with a shield would not be knocked down so much. Or at least does not need to roll every time it takes a hit.
Could be an option. I will have to think on it. Our system has worked fine and we feel comfortable with it so I will probably not change it but thanks for the suggestion anyway. ;)

It's a very good list, and I have little to add. I could have added Folk Lore and Faerie Lore to the skill list, but they might just be more useful in my games than in ours.

It's a very good list, and I have little to add. I could have added Folk Lore and Faerie Lore to the skill list, but they might just be more useful in my games than in ours.


They are definitely useful skills, but by and large, not as often rolled, at least not in our games. I tried to limit that specialization skill list to those skills that I felt were truly almost essential to have in the party. Folk and Faerie Lore would definitely follow, Read, Recognize and Heraldry would be nice, too.

Awareness and Courtesy get rolled almost every session for us. Often multiple times, even. Same is true for Intrigue. Wish to know what is being whispered at court? Intrigue. What peasants think has a lower priority. We use Orate as the public speaking and when you try to convince a lord or someone to do something with a fine speech, it is Orate that you use. It is needed less often, but since it is also a storytelling skill, it gets used at court, too. And when it is needed, it tends to be pretty critical storywise (will King Cadwy send his troops to help or not, etc). High First Aid is obviously a life saver, but since there is no designated healer when all are knights, the guy with the high FA can be the one who is in most need for it... Hence why in the other campaign they hired a Healer NPC to ride with them. Hunting is again something that is very useful in many adventures: trying to track down a band of Saxon raiders? Hunting. Trying to sneak around a border patrol? Hunting. Battle again very useful, but probably something that is not critical during the first couple of years in the young knights' life.

Folk and Faerie Lore would definitely follow, Read, Recognize and Heraldry would be nice, too.


Slightly off topic, but how are you using read? I haven't been able to find much use for it as a Knight (usually left to clerics and priests).

Slightly off topic, but how are you using read? I haven't been able to find much use for it as a Knight (usually left to clerics and priests).


Not as much as I probably should, I am afraid. Best way to give a knight with Read a chance to shine is to include a lot of written notes that help them figure adventures out, or as evidence. Even better if asking a priest is not an option; remember that most village priests are, in fact, illiterate!

Conspiratorial notes: instructions to spies or traitors, or in the more innocent end, love letters
Written reports: maybe information on the enemy movements or something interesting to the players?
Important letters: personal information that helps the PKs solve problems / find a culprit, or maybe even blackmail material?


Race against the clock: Sure, there is a monastery nearby, but it is still an hour each way. What if this information is time-critical?
Who can we trust?: Can you trust that the NPC is telling you the truth of what the thing says? What if he is lying? What if he is the one who is the suspect? Or maybe the information is potentially embarrassing / scandalous, and the local literate priest is a bit of a blabbermouth? Or maybe he is judgemental fire-and-brimstone preacher, liable to denounce people's sins in public.
You are the One: There are no other literate persons within miles and miles. At least that you know about.
You can read? Here, read this!: The superiors use the knight as a trusted secretary. Chance to maybe sit in on confidential meetings and such, and get the inside scoop.

In order to make Read a bit more useful, and to avoid stonewalling your players with a failure, you could use bonus modifiers, like:
Simple, short note: +5
Recognizing a name or something: +10
Critical could be good enough to recognize handwriting.

They are definitely useful skills, but by and large, not as often rolled, at least not in our games. I tried to limit that specialization skill list to those skills that I felt were truly almost essential to have in the party. Folk and Faerie Lore would definitely follow, Read, Recognize and Heraldry would be nice, too.

Awareness and Courtesy get rolled almost every session for us. Often multiple times, even. Same is true for Intrigue. Wish to know what is being whispered at court? Intrigue. What peasants think has a lower priority. We use Orate as the public speaking and when you try to convince a lord or someone to do something with a fine speech, it is Orate that you use. It is needed less often, but since it is also a storytelling skill, it gets used at court, too. And when it is needed, it tends to be pretty critical storywise (will King Cadwy send his troops to help or not, etc). High First Aid is obviously a life saver, but since there is no designated healer when all are knights, the guy with the high FA can be the one who is in most need for it... Hence why in the other campaign they hired a Healer NPC to ride with them. Hunting is again something that is very useful in many adventures: trying to track down a band of Saxon raiders? Hunting. Trying to sneak around a border patrol? Hunting. Battle again very useful, but probably something that is not critical during the first couple of years in the young knights' life.


I would say that the four most used skills in my games are: Awareness, Intrigue, Courtesy and Hunting ... These four skills are rolled more than all the rest together.

But I run a lot of mysteries and investigative adventures, and thats were Folk Lore and Faerie Lore crops up.

Read? Almost never. Language skills have never really worked very well in BRP or any PRP-clone. It could be removed from the game, I think, with little loss. Only Swimming is more superfluous to KAP as a game.

[Indeed, for a KAP 6 I would like to see a great reform of the whole skill system, so that there are fewer skills with more omph].

But I run a lot of mysteries and investigative adventures, and thats were Folk Lore and Faerie Lore crops up.


Yep. Faerie Lore mainly comes up when the PKs have grief with the Faerie, or are dealing with a monstrous creature of some sort. Then Faerie Lore can be quite nice. I can see Folklore being useful if you are trying to get information out of the peasantry without beating them up.



Read? Almost never. Language skills have never really worked very well in BRP or any PRP-clone. It could be removed from the game, I think, with little loss. Only Swimming is more superfluous to KAP as a game.


I am looking at you, Boating.



[Indeed, for a KAP 6 I would like to see a great reform of the whole skill system, so that there are fewer skills with more omph].


Quite agreed here. My wish list, of the top of my head and in no particular order:

1) Eliminate Compose and subsume composing into Play (for instruments), Singing (for songs) and Orate (for poetry). In short, you will be able to do your own compositions with your own performance skill.

2) Keep Swimming, but set starting skill value at character generation to DEX. That makes it sorta usable for most knights in a pinch (and without armor), and if someone wishes to be good or learns through experience, they can.

3) Combine Recognize and Heraldry; both are about recognizing people in their core.

4) Subsume Faerie Lore under Folk Lore. Most of the stuff that the knights would know about faerie and faerie creatures and their strengths and weaknesses would be based on old peasant tales and superstitions anyway.

5) I'd probably drop Gaming. Doesn't seem to serve a useful role in the game. I can understand the same argument for eliminating Read and giving everyone the ability, but I sort of like the niche of a literate knight in a mostly illiterate world. I'd drop Boating, though. So far, I have not seen any player take it, and I have a hard time thinking of a circumstance where a knight would actually need it, unless it is a very contrived one. If you are going to sail to the continent, you are hiring a ship AND the crew.

6) Tourney and Romance are a bit iffy, too. Both are rather narrowly defined, usable only in a very artificial circumstances. And seem more exclusionary than anything else, 'succeed in this skill or you are barred from activity' -type. On the other hand, if you do not need Tourney to participate in a tournament, what is it good for? Acting as a tournament judge? Whopee. Let me get those points into Tourney right now... In our campaign, the answer was: to gain extra Glory from the tournament and to get a small bonus to your skills during the tournament. But that is a rather minor benefit. I'd be tempted to drop Tourney altogether and combine Flirting and Romance; the rules of engagement and the time scale are different, but the main idea is still the same. Impress the lady and eventually bed her. Surely a charmer would have an easier time at that. It would also give Flirting a bit of a facelift and prevent the territorial scuffles between the two skills.

So that would be 7 skills removed or combined with other skills: Boating, Compose, Faerie Lore, Gaming, Heraldry, Romance and Tourney.

Hmm. How about combining Religion and Read? That makes sense especially for the Christians, who probably have learned their letters using the Bible under the tutelage of a priest? That would also give these two often neglected skills a bit more combined oomph.

In order to make Read a bit more useful, and to avoid stonewalling your players with a failure, you could use bonus modifiers, like:
Simple, short note: +5
Recognizing a name or something: +10
Critical could be good enough to recognize handwriting.


I think this is what I was missing. I like these modifiers a lot and it would definitely help the skill get used more. With this approach, I can certainly see read becoming a useful "plot specific" skill (along the lines of faerie lore or the new "Diplomacy" skill) but still can't really see it ever becoming a core skill for most Knights. I'm thinking this could be awesome for a PK that is a "3rd born son" (raised for the church) that comes into play due to his older siblings dying off.


Indeed, for a KAP 6 I would like to see a great reform of the whole skill system, so that there are fewer skills with more omph.

I could not agree more. Despite being very early in our campaign, I am already struggling to make a few of the skills useful, even for NPCs (boating!).



1) Eliminate Compose and subsume composing into Play (for instruments), Singing (for songs) and Orate (for poetry).
2) Keep Swimming, but set starting skill value at character generation to DEX.
3) Combine Recognize and Heraldry
4) Subsume Faerie Lore under Folk Lore.
5) I'd probably drop Gaming...Read...Boating
6) ...drop Tourney...and combine Flirting and Romance

...How about combining Religion and Read?


Good stuff here. A few responses:

I really like the idea of eliminating "compose" and asking the PKs to make individual rolls for the skills it would take to create such a composition. Orate for the lyrics (or if you are "just" composing a poem), and then a singing and/or play (instrument) roll for the music. You might also be able to combine some sort of reading or literacy skill for writing it down. The glory (or impact) of such a compesition would be determined by the number of successes that you made. Succeed on all of them and it can be very glorious. Crit on all of them and all of Britain could be playing your composition!
I would just get rid of swimming entirely. Even if swimming were added to the DEX score, I still can't imagine a PK making that a focus. It is just *so* specialized. I think it would be better to just make all "physical" checks rolls vs. an attribute skill. Strength checks vs. STR, swimming, balance, throwing vs. DEX, health related checks vs. CON, etc. Frankly, I can't even imagine NPCs that would focus on swimming as a skill.
On the Recognize and Heraldry we disagree. I like having these as separate skills. One is for recognizing faces, the other coats of arms. They are completely different and "feel" Knightly to me. I can spend a ton of time memorizing coats of arms and that won't help me remember faces at all.
I like combining folk and faerie lore, but don't feel strongly. I can definitely appreciate the argument they are separate skills. I can see both being trained with the current rules "as written" in my campaign, but I bet if they were combined, they would be trained much more frequently. Said differently, I think if you combined these it could lead towards an archetype (like the literate Knight or the religious Knight), but as is the skills are just a "nice to have."
I am using Gaming as a "courtly" ability, similar to Falconry. Sure, it can be used for gambling, but I'm using it more often for Chess (Gwyddbwyll) to gain favor with NPCs that also like Gaming (just like Falconry is good for NPCs that like Falconry). It's a "fluff" ability that's fun, but probably not a core skill. You could easily get rid of it, but then why not also get rid of Falconry or Dancing? I lean towards keeping this one. Besides, as gamers ourselves, I think that secretly some players like to have this skill so they can identify with their PKs.
I completely agree with combining Fliring and Romance. Maybe I don't fully understand the indtended differences, but it seems to me the "Romance" behaviors would be acted out by the PKs themselves, not rolled for. I understand that Gwenevere introduces formal rules for Romance, but again, it seems you could just make a Courtesy or Flirt roll in the appropriate context and meet the objective rather than having a separate skill. That being said, I'm not to this phase yet, maybe I'm missing something.
I also haven't gotten to the Tourney phase yet so I can't really speak that out of experience. Just reading over things, it seems that a Courtesy roll could possibly suffice?
I don't think Read and Religion are the same. As you pointed out, many Priests are illiterate! Also, if I understand things correctly, the Pagans didn't write their religion down so just because a Pagan has high religion would not mean they are also literate. Like "Folklore" above, I think that you could create an archetype for a literate Knight. It is likely it would pair well with Religion as well, but not necessarily.


So working through all of this I noticed a principles I would use to determine whether or not a skill should be there:

Will PKs have the opportunity to use this skill in the majority of adventures (i.e.; boating and swimming probably won't so they are not necessary, Farie Lore and Folk Lore would get use a lot more if they were combined)
Is there a reason PKs would purposefully want to train this skill, if not, we probably don't need it or it should be combined with something else.
If a PK specializes in a skill, would they be able to use it frequnet enough for it to become an "archetype?" We recognize the "hunting Knight" and the "Courtley Knight" today. Can we create others by combining skills?

Musician/Poet - Gains glory by composing/performing music or poems about his exploits (think Lancelot in Bernard Cornwell's Warlord series)
Folk Hero - Good with peasants and faries. Might combine well with Pagan religion?
"Buddy" Knight - Gains glory and the friendship of NPCs by engaging in activities they are interested in such as Gaming or Falconry
Cassanova - Gains glory by flirting, dancing, and otherwise wooing NPCs
Literate - Could combine well with Religion (Christian) and courtly skills like Inrigue or Diplomacy.


Just thinking out loud a bit. The basic idea here is to identify a few common archetypes and streamline the skills to allow PKs to focus on the aspects they like best. The way the skills are currently set up, they are too granular to allow this specialization making some skills farm more useful than others. Following this logic, maybe Recognize and Heraldry *should* be combined. Hmmm... :o

Nice, long response, thanks for that. I'll just focus on the couple of things in there. :)




Orate for the lyrics (or if you are "just" composing a poem), and then a singing and/or play (instrument) roll for the music.


I'd just subsume it under the skill:
If you have Singing, you can compose songs with lyrics.
If you have Play, you can compose melodies no problem.
If you have Orate, you can compose poems.

That way, you don't need more than one skill to get the full use of the skill.



I would just get rid of swimming entirely. Even if swimming were added to the DEX score, I still can't imagine a PK making that a focus.


Admittedly, I have a hard time figuring such a case, either. So yeah, just roll DEX.



I can spend a ton of time memorizing coats of arms and that won't help me remember faces at all.


That's because we don't use Heraldry all that much in our daily lives. Imagine if all of us would go around in T-shirts having our Heraldic symbols on them. Well, in part some already do: uniforms. You can spot an employee of a supermarket by the clothing that they wear, so you know who to ask for help even if you haven't met them before.

In any case, my base argument is that the general rules of Heraldry are simple enough to grasp in a few lines. You don't need more than that as a normal knight. You are going to consult with the heralds anyway to make sure there is no conflict between your coat of arms and someone elses. So where Heraldry comes to its own in play is recognizing who that guy in face-covering helmet is. And yes, I did use that verb there deliberately. :) By splitting the ability to recognize a guy between two skills, it weakens them both so much that they become 'useless' in the words of one of my players.



I am using Gaming as a "courtly" ability, similar to Falconry. You could easily get rid of it, but then why not also get rid of Falconry or Dancing?


You know, I was thinking that exact same question. I came to the conclusion that while Gaming seems to be more like a very niche skill and tends to appeal to a subset of players who like to play gamblers... Not to say that the knights didn't like wagers and stuff, but a card shark knight sits very poorly with me. Falconry and Dancing are much more social, and give better chances, in my opinion, to flirt with the ladies. Not to mention fit my image of knightly activities much better. It is not that I have a strong dislike with Gaming. Just that if I would have to drop a skill away, it would be one of them.

The one big niche where Gaming could come to its own is dealing with faerie. At least in the fairytales, faeries tend to be big on playing games and wagers.



I also haven't gotten to the Tourney phase yet so I can't really speak that out of experience. Just reading over things, it seems that a Courtesy roll could possibly suffice?


Yep, although it again emphasizes the role of Courtesy even more. But I can live with that.



I don't think Read and Religion are the same. As you pointed out, many Priests are illiterate! Also, if I understand things correctly, the Pagans didn't write their religion down so just because a Pagan has high religion would not mean they are also literate.



Most of those illiterate village priests wouldn't have high Religion, either. :P They are performing their offices by rote. Ask them what they think of Saint Ambrose's views on transubstantiation and watch then starting to sweat. :P

True, the pagan druids didn't have writing, which is why we know so little of them anyway. Wotanist priests had runes, though. And the druidc paganism had been stamped out centuries earlier. I have no problems with Pendragon druids being learned men in classical philosophy; certainly Merlin is often portrayed as well-read.

In any case, my original assertion stands: A Christian Knight most likely would have gotten his letters in a monastery or some such. I'd have no problems with a Pagan knight having learned his letters studying Roman Philosophy, instead. And really, in the end, if you want to just have Religion without Read or Read without Religion, you could just note it on your character sheet 'illiterate' or 'knows nothing about religion'. The intent was to salvage Religion and Read from the black pit that they seem to have fallen currently.

Fun discussion. 8)

Agree on Compose. I like it. :)

You've convinced me on Heraldry. I still think the skills are different enough that you could justify a separate skill from a simulation standpoint, however, you run into the same issue as Faerie Lore and Folk Lore. By splitting the skill you reduce the opportunities to use it, so it never ends up getting taken. Thus, combining the skills is better for gameplay and they *are* used to accomplish the same things. I could definitely see a PK wanting to be the "recognize guy" in the party. Frankly, if I had never seen the two skills separated before and someone told me "you can use recognize for faces or coats of arms" I'd completely be on board with the idea. I think the only hesitation is that I was introduced to them as separate skills initially so I have "recognize = faces" stuck in my head. ;D

I think the main difference on Gaming is that I'm using it less of gambling and more as Chess (although I would allow it for Gambling as well in the right context). This means the use is more frequent in my campaign. I definitely see Chess (or Gwyddbwyll in the early game phase) as a courtly pastime no less common than Falconry or Dancing. During the winter it might even be more common! No matter, it's one of those "fluff" skills that is fun to have, but I can't see anyone making "gaming" their primary focus unless they are REALLY trying to suck up to all of the NPCs (maybe the "Politician" or "Cassanova" types might find it useful).

I'm still struggling with the idea of combining Religion and Reading. I do like the idea of combining them because they would get used more frequently, but their function is pretty different. I wonder if you could just combine them into something like "Education." The adventure "The Young Scholar" (GPC p95) clearly outlines what would fall into this category:



He knows the Trivium (the “three roads” of grammar, logic, and rhetoric) and the Quadrivium (“four roads”; arithmetic, geometry, music, and cosmology) back and forth; he has studied philosophy and alchemy, scripture and law; he knows all the Classics; and he has dabbled with the Keys of Solomon.

Clearly this includes both reading and religion, could be used by any religion (it even implies a study of mysticism). If players sent their sons to Oxford, they could raise their "Education" score (I want to say I came across an adventure along these very lines, but I can't seem to locate it now).

The net effect would be that you have an "Educated Knight" archetype that could interact well with other educated folks. I imagine it would end up used similarly to "Stewardship", "Diplomacy", etc. It isn't a Knightly skill per se. Most players *still* probably wouldn't have their PKs take it very often, but it could make for a fun experience when they did. Again, it makes for some really interesting interaction for 3rd born sons, or trying to impress those powerful estate holding Bishops, etc.

"Education"

It is called Artes Liberales (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_arts_education). In Ars Magica that actually is a skill with that name. But I don't know if that is the right way to go in KAP. [Or do you see a knight confuse a giant with his skills in Logic?].

And it is a fun discussion, I will try to write something more substantial in a day or two.

But a bit of topic, perhaps a moderator could create a new thread out of it?

It is called Artes Liberales (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_arts_education). In Ars Magica that actually is a skill with that name. But I don't know if that is the right way to go in KAP. [Or do you see a knight confuse a giant with his skills in Logic?].


No, but like luckythirteen suggested, it would make a very nice 'flavor' for a 3rd son. Being more educated than his more brutish brethren, dropping Latin quotations from Commentarii de Bello Gallico, and so forth. And having that kind of "Education" skill would certainly have enough oomph behind it. Heck, I would be tempted to get it simply so that I can claim to write a history of the Fall and Rise of the Pendragon Kings. :P



But a bit of topic, perhaps a moderator could create a new thread out of it?


You could always open up a new topic and just include a link to 'previous discussion' here. :)

Side note, I found the adventure I was referencing above. It's titled "Cambridge" found in "The Spectre King" page 88. It explains the "Bachelor program" for "Bachelor Knights" and has rules for sending students to college. There are various programs (Arts, Theology, Law, and Medicine) that students can be enrolled in, and you get skill checks each year while enrolled. With an "education" (or similarly named) skill, you could arguably combine these.

I guess what I like about combining them is that when the education skills are split up, it is going to be VERY rare you'd ever get to use the points that you have invested in. You almost have to have a custom adventure created if you ever want to use it. This makes it almost silly for PKs to train that skill. If you combine them together, it will still be a "flavor" skill that isn't used often, but it *might* be useful enough for someone to consider training that skill in the winter (particularly if they had that 3rd born son who likely starts with higher than normal skills in this area anyway). I realize education is not "knightly" per se (particularly in the early phase!), but there are enough 3rd born sons out there (plus all the powerful religious folks) that it could make for an interesting character.

I like the idea so much, I think I'm going to talk to my players and get their thoughts. I have a feeling they will jump at the idea to consolidate some of their stats. 8)

I guess what I like about combining them is that when the education skills are split up, it is going to be VERY rare you'd ever get to use the points that you have invested in.


Yep, that is my argument for combining 'related', less used skills, too.

As for the Education skill, I might allow Medicine, but that is the humors theory of medicine, suitable for gentlemen, not the actual binding wounds and setting of broken bones, which would still be Chirurgery. In other words, next to useless at best, downright dangerous at worst. Law is another sub-skill that I'd have to think about a bit. Depends really how important that is in the campaign. If lawyering is a big deal, then it would be worth a skill of its own. Whereas if it is more or less flavor or seldom used (my default assumption), then I would have no problems leaving it under Education.

...I might allow Medicine, but that is the humors theory of medicine, suitable for gentlemen, not the actual binding wounds...If lawyering is a big deal, then it would be worth a skill of its own.

100% agree. To me, this skill would represent "Book Learning" or "Knowledge", not the practical application of this knowledge (outside of using it to read or write of course). This is still a "flavor" skill. It's really no different than how the existing "flavor skills" are used today, except that by combining them together, you increase the likelihood of being able to use it.

Merlin is the classic example of someone with this "Education" skill. From what I'm reading, I think Archbishop Dubricus would also have a high "Education" skill. As "Educated" men, Merlin and Dubricus can give advice to the King on any number of things from law to philosophy to science, and I would imagine these guys would *love* to find other educated PKs to talk with (the primary reason to take this skill IMHO). However, despite their knowledge, you probably wouldn't want Dubricus or Merlin performing Chirurgery after battle though! :o Merlin could use his magic of course, but that's a different skill entirely.

This is the "suck up to smart people" skill with the added bonus of being able to read and write so there is SOME practical application for it. 8)

Edit: You could probably make an argument that you could gain some glory with it somehow too. The "Young Scholar" in the GPC was obviously well known for his education, so clearly there is some glory here. Maybe you get some glory for discussing education with other famous people. If you can converse with Merln or Dubricus about something intelligent, that has to be impressive to someone. :)

I just created a new post in the "What would you like to see in a KING ARTHUR PENDRAGON Sixth Edition" thread for the consolidating skills topic.

http://nocturnal-media.com/forum/index.php?topic=1980.msg18768#new

Concerning the combining of Faerie Lore and Folk Lore:

I am not certain they are that much interchangeable. Sure, Folk Lore contains certain aspects of knowledge about faerie and the supernatural, but it is also the equivalent of Courtesy skill among commoners. It is used to know local customs and law, and to communicate successfully with peasants. In my campaign, it was also used as a streetwise-equivalent while exploring urban surroundings and when dealing with common-born city dwellers (artisans, merchants, seamen etc.).

Concerning the combining of Faerie Lore and Folk Lore:


I answered Cornelius' similar opinion in the above thread that Taliesin linked. What would you like to see in the 6th edition.