Something unexpected happened last session, and I say unexpected because I more or less improvised based on some unexpected bad rolls from me and my players. Here's the setup:

In year 487 AD, my players chose to ride with Uther to Lindsey. While they waited for the Duke to return, they went a-hunting, like the campaign suggests. I knew beforehand Uther had only Hunting 2, so I asked my players what they wanted to do: two decided to ride with Uther and his entourage (choosing not to roll their Hunting) and the other two decided to roll their Hunting skills. Grid on table, everyone rolling their dice, including Uther. He is also a bit of Reckless man as his trait suggests so I had him roll the dice and described as enthusiastically stalking his quarry with the PK barely able to keep up. Suddenly, Uther rolled a Fumble and I ruled that he got lost in the woods with the 2 PKs with him. The other two PKs were busy rolling their Hunting elsewhere.

Just as Uther was about to blow his hunting horn, an arrow shots from the dark and strikes him in the neck. A barely alive Uther and the two PKs are surrounded by 4 saxons in the wilds, so in the ensuing fight, the PKs managed to defend Uther's life at a significant cost (one was badly wounded and the other suffered several wounds). The other two PKs managed to join the fight with some good Awareness rolls (they hear Uther's horn and the clash of swords - plus I didn't want them to sit this one out). In the end, they killed on Saxon, the other three fled into the woods (some good Horsemanship rolls).

It was an intense fight and it provided some good Glory. However, and I finally get to the point, I feel that some sort of reward is due. I need suggestions and ideas. They will certainly be the talk of the court next year and they certainly got Uther's attention (I will weave this into future stories before the dreaded year 495 AD). So, what would Uther do to the reward these knights, if at all?

Those knights have certainly earned the king's gratitude—and an estate, per p. 18 of the Book of the Estate.


Best,


T.

Unfortunately, I don't own Book of the Estate.

Give them the title "Banneret" and at least 3 additional manors and you'll be close to the BotE rules.

Really depends how generous you wish Uther to be. (He'd certainly have some words to say to his bodyguards, who were absent and didn't even ride to his horn blasts...)

Frankly, Banneret titles and 3 manors all around for fighting of 4 measly Saxons? Seriously? Yes, they probably saved the King's life, but this was hardly heroics above and beyond. Compare to how the players were rewarded for helping Merlin get the Sword of Victory for Uther: just thanks.

Were it me... I could see giving a manor to someone who really was taking hits for the King (MAYBE) and/or a place in the King's household knights (by which I don't mean that they would get demoted, but basically asked/ordered by the King to stick around). This might be good for extra income as well; hooray, everyone is now Rich grade of maintenance until told otherwise! Not to mention having the King's ear, and shown favor (extra Glory). Alternatively, one-time reward of £20+ or so, and loads of Glory for saving the King's life.

4 x 3+ manor estates? No chance in my campaign, not for fighting 4, count it, 4 Saxons. But I am a stingy GM, so your mileage may vary.

Well, my Uther is both Generous and Arbritary, so if yours are too, you can do this a lot of ways.

Making all baneretts/giving the estates/3 manors each is rather radical; not only very generous (from a GM and/or Uther perspective, as pointed out by Morien), but it will also change your campaign a lot. Do you really want four great land owners in your group, with the focus that entails? If not, let Uther be stingy. Give em treasure, give em horses, give em better armor, give em Glory, give em the Kings ear [until they offend him). You can do a lot with this, and with different repercussions for your campaign.

Now, when my PKs helped Uther get the Sword in the Lake (and save his ass from the Knight of the Basilisk and his pixie minions), the King said: "Thanks, I'm much obliged. What do you want in reward?" This, of course, gives the PKs rope enough to hang themselves, to ask for too little, too much [Selfish or Reckless checks are possible], or something out of the ordinary ["A mass and a candle for your pious uncle Sir Endever each Sunday in St Albans cathedral?" *laugh" "I would have given you a Destrier, but ..."]. And, since he had a new sword, he gave his old one to one of the PKs ...

Frankly, Banneret titles and 3 manors all around for fighting of 4 measly Saxons? Seriously?


To be clear, I don't think I'd offer that much in rewards, I was just trying to indicate the Banneret title and 3x Manors would be similar in value to being given an estate since dwarinpt doesn't have BotE (which I recommend if you aren't using BotM already BTW).

Personally, I love Skarpskytten's idea of the King granting them "a boon." Seems completely appropriate based on the Aurthurian stories I have read. :)

Personally, I love Skarpskytten's idea of the King granting them "a boon." Seems completely appropriate based on the Aurthurian stories I have read. :)


Exactly! And of course, a boon can be "spent" at once, or kept for later, giving the PKs even more to agonize over.

A king is always looking for good men, and now he knows that these knights will stick with him when things get tight. Have Uther send them off on some important but minor errand. I had a young Byzantine player knight with a spectacular battle/tactics skill in my party, so I had Uther place him in command of some other young promising knights and do a small battle against raiding Saxons. They did well and that led to more work . . . eventually the knight was made Prince Madoc's Lord Marshall. That made the whole Madoc thing more powerful.

Personally, I love Skarpskytten's idea of the King granting them "a boon." Seems completely appropriate based on the Aurthurian stories I have read. :)


Exactly! And of course, a boon can be "spent" at once, or kept for later, giving the PKs even more to agonize over.


Yep, liking the boon idea, too. :-)

Unfortunately, I don't own Book of the Estate.


Well, there's no better time to remedy that situation! The Book of the Estate contains guidelines for rewards from King Uther along with a ton of other great information. "Estate" certainly falls under the category of an appropriate award for saving King Uther's life. Although some of my friends here disagree with that level of generosity, I'd answer them a couple or ways:

1.) If saving the King's life isn't worth an estate, what is? I mean, I guess it can depend on how imperiled Uther's life really was, but if his life was truly in jeopardy save for the character's intervention, then, yeah, it's hard to imagine a situation more deserving of an estate other than turning the tide of a major battle. I don't know what difference it makes that only four Saxons were involved. At first the odds were 2:1, since Uther was sorely wounded, and two of the PKs were otherwise disposed; sounds like they came in at the end. How many more Saxons were "off-camera" and discouraged or routed because of the fight? Not only that but, the PKs got Uther to safety, apparently stabilized his wounds, etc.

2.) It doesn't have to be a large estate, and this is here a Generous roll could be made for King Uther as well. An estate can be as little as £30. Doesn't have to be a £100 holding.

3.) We see NPCs with multiple manors and estates and, although some of these are inherited from their fathers, some are also won through deeds of arms. If personally saving the king's life doesn't qualify, I don't know what does.

4.) I don't know that the Excalibur comparison in a good parallel to draw, because the king would probably give Merlin most of the credit. The characters are celebrated with a Feast, and they get some good Glory from the episode.

5.) The two PKs who turned the tide might get more consideration than the two that came in at the last. In fact, I'd definitely play it this way in my campaign. The ones who came in at the end my get a manor.

But there are lots of great ideas in this thread, and as Morien rightly points out, Your Pendragon May Vary...


Best,


T.

1.) If saving the King's life isn't worth an estate, what is? I mean, I guess it can depend on how imperiled Uther's life really was, but if his life was truly in jeopardy save for the character's intervention, then, yeah, it's hard to imagine a situation more deserving of an estate other than turning the tide of a major battle.


My thoughts exactly.

I do see your point, Taliesin. However... while the end result (King's life was saved) is certainly a big deal, it does matter, at least to me, who did it and how that was achieved.

One guy single-handedly fighting off dozen or so berserkers, building a wall of bodies around himself and the badly wounded Uther? My Uther would be starting to look for a (maybe even Baron-level) heiress to marry this guy off to. Clearly, this guy is worthy of being rewarded lavishly, and will continue those amazing heroics in Uther's service in the future.

Two guys on horseback keeping, barely, four Saxon bandits at bay, until the arrival of two other knights made the Saxons flee, with only one Saxon left on the ground? Meh. They happened to be in the right place at the right time, but didn't do anything especially beyond the capabilities of other knights. Indeed, an argument could be made that they did more POORLY than I would have expected average knights to fare. So yes, definitely worthy of being rewarded (the King is still breathing, after all), but he has better people in his service, people whose future service he would need/appreciate more. These guys? Just a few young knights, dime a dozen. Reward them, but don't toss away 10+ manors to do it. Keep the names in mind, and if their future service proves that they are worthy of estates, then by all means, do so. But until then...

Since Taliesin didn't appreciate my Excalibur comparison, how about Capturing King Octa, instead? Uther's nemesis, whose capture nets the PKs a charger each + £100 to share, after they fight the highly skilled, mounted bodyguards and Octa himself. Possibly already wounded from the long battle beforehand. No mention of an estate or even single manors there. Granted, Uther only has one life and plenty of enemies, but still.

How about killing Duke Gorlois? No reward mentioned there. (Granted, the GPC makes it very easy to kill Gorlois if the PKs don't care about Honor.) And lest you all think I am a GM who never gives rewards to the PKs... In our campaign I made the PKs square off against Gorlois' mounted bodyguards while he was finishing Madog off. One of the PKs managed to fight his way to Gorlois (alas, too late for Madog) and then in fair combat one-shotted Gorlois off the saddle, dead (nice crit rolling). Uther, recognizing that the PKs had been helping him nicely so far (Excalibur, Octa and now Gorlois, in addition to other stuff) and having Gorlois' lands to distribute, made Gorlois' killer a banneret (3 own manors) and the other 4 knights his vassals (1 manor each) in Cornwall.

(On the other tentacle, my Evil GM side did this so that I can get the players to feel the pain of Anarchy as Idril rolls over their Cornish lands and repossesses them. >:P )

Well, I think it's safe to say that awards of manors and estates weren't exactly at the fore of Greg's thinking when he wrote those scenarios ten or more years ago. I'd wager if there's ever a GPC 2nd Ed. those deeds of arms — and their attendant rewards — will get more consideration!


Best,


T.

I would not give grants as large as estates. It is after all a commitment beyond their own lives. Large gifts like horses and other things would be more aproriate.

Since they have shown to be good bodyguards. You could give them this position. This could make them new enemies as for instance sir Brastias may not like It.

As a GM I always like to add some bad with the good.

Well, I'm clearly in the "no estate" camp of this discussion, but I want to add another point of view.

Your Games Will Vary.

That being true, I find it a bit beside the point what Uther "should" do. This is a fantasy game, there are a lot of things Uther could do. His pride wounded, he could lie about the whole thing and don' give the PKs anything - they seen him weak, and now he really dislikes them. Thats one thing Uther could do. Or he could throw a bunch of manors at them. But using history (or even the official books) as some sort of objective criteria from which we can distill a truth about what "should"(as if, if you don't, you are wrong), is the wrong way of thinking.

The question is, were dwarimpt want to go with his campaign. As long as Uther behavior is consistent with what he has done earlier in this campaign and with how he has been described, the important aspect is whats dwarimpt want to make of it.

Uther can give the PKs armor and horses. This has a low impact, since these are "perishables" (and in due time will loose their edge).
Uther can give them lots of treasure. Since there is little to by in KAP, this also has a rather low impact.
Utah can give them lost of manors. This places the PKs in another status category than mere vassal knights, give them a lot of power and responsibilities. This will have a major impact on the campaign, from now until 465.
Uther can lend them an ear, use them in special missions, etc. This affects game play a lot NOW, but only until they fall out of favor or Uther dies. This has clear story-telling implications, but not necessarily affect the power level of the PKs in any significant way.

Such considerations, I would advice, should decide dwarimpt's take on this.

Excellent post, Skarpskytten. :)

And Cornelius, I do agree about grants vs. gift. (For the record, that banneret & vassal manors were a gift, so in principle will perish at Uther's death, but during Anarchy, possession is 9 tenths of the law...)

I too think that an estate is way too much.
Maybe a manor, if they do not have one
Uther, like real king, were loath to give away their income.

The boon is a great idea.
The king owes them a favor. That's magnificent coinage in the realm.

Uh... p. 18 of Book of the Estate describes how estates might be awarded.

Page 19 has a list of "worthy of awarding an estate."

The second item is "saving the king's life."

So — that's no longer the case?


T.

So — that's no longer the case?

Well, I would say "yes", but that also depends on circumstances. I.e:



Yes, they probably saved the King's life, but this was hardly heroics above and beyond.

They did their duty and fought (for their own lives!) the Saxons when attacked. ONE Saxon died. And it is not quite clear from the starting post if the actually saved Uther from certain death or just protected him or helped him defeat the enemies at hand. Just standing between the King and harms way can hardly be worth an Estate, the King would be running out of land and household knights pretty soon if that was the case. Furthermore, the whole thing took place in a forest, without witnesses.

I would say that a dramatic and high risk rescue, like: riding up to a prone King, slaying the 'zerker that has "Uther" written on his axe, giving the King your horse, sending him of in the mids of battle, that is worthy an Estate. Our case here is, I think, something quite different. Also, there were four of them. So if one royal life is worth one estate, then they should perhaps rather share one estate than get one each?


Excellent post, Skarpskytten.

Thanks man. I'm not saying that we should not use the KAP supplements, or history, or literature to help us run our games. But these things often conflict, and far to often the right answer is not "out there" but "you can do it a lot of ways - what kind of game are you running".

Well, all I can say is, when I purchase a game rulebook I expect to find rules that are applicable —not "kinda-sorta rules that may or may not apply to this or that situation".

Rules that aren't rules aren't very helpful, IMO. So now I don't even know if the estate my wife's PK got for killing the Duke of Cornwall was justified. Says it is in the Book of the Estate, but...


T.

SPOILERS (to my players if they are reading this).

Following on my previous post, to clarify things: I did not intend, from the start, to have Uther in peril. His entourage and knights were hunting in Lindsey (as it states in year 487 AD). I just ruled it as interesting that, following a fumble on his hunting skill, Uther would get lost in the woods, recklessly riding ahead of his knights who could barely keep up with him (except the PK, of course, because they are, you know, the protagonists).

From the player's point of view, Uther was indeed in peril. One of the PK even used his own body as shield to prevent the Saxons from striking Uther, who was unable to move because he had been shot through the neck and bleeding. Was he really in peril from a metaplot point of view? Should I let the dice fall as they may and see what happened next? I was making this up as I went, so I did not know the answer? What if he died? I don't know. The only important thing is that from the CHARACTERS point of view, Uther was, indeed, in peril and the PKs saved him. The scene served me well to place the PKs front and center in the story and as protagonists of the setting.

I read all the suggestions. I won't be using rules from books I don't own, so Book of the Estate is out of question. Some of the posts sparked some ideas. First, it doesn't matter that there weren't any witnesses. Uther was a witness to it all and he may well summon the PKs to his court to reward them (thus, another scene where the PKs can reap more Glory). I like the idea of asking the PKs to decide what rewards they think they are worth, perhaps checking some traits.

A player might ask for a suitable lady to marry. This player has been chasing Lady Indeg with little luck, so perhaps Uther will advise Lord Roderick to suggest a marriage between the PK and one of the other suitable ladies from KAP.

Another player might receive a better than average horse (like a charger).

Monetary rewards are not entirely out of the question, especially as one of the PK has been unlucky on his Winter Phase rolls and living as a Poor knight for the past couple of years.

A manor would also be a suitable reward, but I'll have to judge the player's reactions (I won't certainly suggest it, but if they do...).

Tying what happened to future events, in year 488 AD, if they chose to follow Uther to Wells, the High King will personally ask them to guard his tent. We all know this is what happens in the tale regardless, however the PLAYERS don't know that, so it will seem something that happens organically from the story. If they follow Madoc to the Continent, the prince will show them a great deal of attention. They certainly caught the eye of the powers-that-be.

Excellent post, Skarpskytten. :)

Agree wholehearted. In the end it is all how you wish to play out the King himself.

Well, all I can say is, when I purchase a game rulebook I expect to find rules that are applicable —not "kinda-sorta rules that may or may not apply to this or that situation".

Rules that aren't rules aren't very helpful, IMO. So now I don't even know if the estate my wife's PK got for killing the Duke of Cornwall was justified. Says it is in the Book of the Estate, but...


T.


I think it just comes down to your preference as a GM. I certainly don't think it would be inappropriate to grant an estate for saving the King's life (it says so in the rules!), I just wouldn't choose to do this in my own campaign based on the information I have. A few reasons for this:

First, owning an estate changes the game for the PKs. It's still very early in his campaign. While entirely appropriate, I still wouldn't choose to grant the estate yet because I want there to be more of a feeling of accomplishment when it finally happens. Second, from how I am reading BotE, it seems that at least by the age of Arthur, the title Banneret (most often given for Battlefield prowess) and the estate frequently go together. My understanding is that the whole point of the Estate is to provide trained troops the King can call on. It would make sense the King would look for someone that had demonstrated the ability to lead his troops, either through combat or adventure. If the King's life had been saved during an important battle and while he was wounded, the PK's unit stepped up and helped the army snatch victory from the jaws of defeat, *that* feels more appropriate for an estate to me. That's certainly not to say that's the only way to do it!

So in short, I don't think it is inappropriate to grant an estate in this scenario (the rules clearly say so!), but I personally wouldn't want to do that in this early stage of my own campaign. I'm willing to play fast and loose with this rule for the sake of building a stronger narrative. Like the "Pirate Code" from Pirates of the Caribbean, I'm choosing to treat those examples as more of "guidelines" than "rules." Aaarrrg! ;D

Uh... p. 18 of Book of the Estate describes how estates might be awarded.
Page 19 has a list of "worthy of awarding an estate."
The second item is "saving the king's life."
So — that's no longer the case?

Ha ha, well, that'll teach me to answer quickly
go by the published rules!

In this context, would saving Uther's life be sufficient to allow the PK to marry Lady Adwen (KAP rulebook). This is what I did: Earl Roderick gave the PKs an audience (instructed by Uther) where they could ask whatever they would like for themselves (one of the players asked for nothing as he said he had done only his duty, so he earned a Modest check). But another requested to marry Lady Adwen. Would he be granted his wish? Also, if a PK asks to be married to a girl above his station, would Earl Roderick grant his wishes and choose a bride himself? These were two different players, by the way.

Player A: I would like to marry Lady Adwen.
Player B: I would like to marry someone above my station.

In this context, would saving Uther's life be sufficient to allow the PK to marry Lady Adwen (KAP rulebook). This is what I did: Earl Roderick gave the PKs an audience (instructed by Uther) where they could ask whatever they would like for themselves (one of the players asked for nothing as he said he had done only his duty, so he earned a Modest check). But another requested to marry Lady Adwen. Would he be granted his wish? Also, if a PK asks to be married to a girl above his station, would Earl Roderick grant his wishes and choose a bride himself? These were two different players, by the way.
Player A: I would like to marry Lady Adwen.
Player B: I would like to marry someone above my station.

First of all, it would be unusual for the king to order his vassal to grant a boon for a deed that they did for the king.
But he did, so:
A. Yes
B. Yes

I don't adhere strictly to historical verisimilitude. After all, these are Arthurian legends. In any case, it would not be hard for me to retcon the scene (which was sketchily played at the end of the session) to a more fully developed scene with Uther in the next session. In this case, let me ask you this:

1) Would it make sense for Uther to summon the PK for a court audience where he would grant these boons? Would it be a private audience or could it be a public audience?
2) Would it make more sense for Uther to summon the PK or for the PK to ask to be granted an audience?
2) Would Uther grant the PK the NPCs in question to marry (Lady Adwen and a wife above the PK's station)?

EDITED: I should have made it clear that Uther asked that Roderick rewarded the knights (this was all done backstage so the PK don't know about it although they know they are being rewarded for saving Uther). This was done by story constraints (Uther was away in Sommerset and the PK were in Frankland.

Thanks.

Since Uther apparently wishes to show off his gratitude and generosity, then it makes sense to do it in public. He would summon the PKs before him and praise their valor and loyalty. This of course risks that the PKs might ask for something the King doesn't wish to give, but that is unlikely based on what you have said.

I consider heiresses by the way to be above the normal vassal knight station, as gaining a second manor is a big deal. Also, you really should look at Heiresses Revised -thread on this Forum.

Anyway, if you, as the GM, have decided that Uther will be inclined to be lavish (whatever that may mean with regard to your version of Adwen), then yes, he can approve the PK's marriage to Adwen. Even if the heiress is the ward of Count Roderick, he can simply tell the Count 'Let it be done.' and the Count will reply 'Your will, Sire.' and it is done. Uther may do a favor for Roderick later, MAYBE, or the Count can be a bit upset by having an heiress snatched from him, if he doesn't approve of the PK in general. However, the Count would not wish to piss off the King on a little thing like that.

Similarly, the King could find another heiress for the other PK.

Also, if the Modest PK is not one of the above two, I would not let him off with a mere Modest check, especially if the other two are getting married to heiresses. A privileged position in the King's household knights (making him a Rich Knight) and maybe even a monetary reward, too. After all, this is the kind of guy the King likes: serving the King and asking for nothing in return!

Well, what Morien said. (We are back to always being in agreement, it seems).



Also, if the Modest PK is not one of the above two, I would not let him off with a mere Modest check, especially if the other two are getting married to heiresses. A privileged position in the King's household knights (making him a Rich Knight) and maybe even a monetary reward, too. After all, this is the kind of guy the King likes: serving the King and asking for nothing in return!


I, too, feel that this player should be further awarded. The King should insist, or ask him again at a later occasion; the King wants to show his Largess and do not want to remain beholden. Make something cool of it. Perhaps he gets a better horse or armor? Or the King privately offers to foster one of his sons?

Also: perhaps there is an proto-chivalric knight (Sir Pellinore or Sir Meliodas springs to mind) that befriends him?

And I do think that the PKs gunning for so much land (and a named Lady at that, not just a general one), should get a check or two. Reckless and Selfish (if you agree with me that this is to really push things) is appropriate, me thinks.

The modest PK received a better than average charger and a small monetary reward.

Like everything in the campaign, when in doubt I decide NPCs reactions by rolling their traits. And, as in real life, highly unlikely things tend to happen. In this case I decided (for good or bad) that Uther, not being present by virtue of traveling to Sommerset (year 488 AD), asked the Earl to reward the PK. This ties nicely to the fact that Roderick supports Uther's pretenses to being High King of Britain and he will have a favor to ask his king (whether this happens or not depends on the campaign's progress before the massacre of year 495 AD). In the end, the PKs will be oblivious to all of this (unless they make an Intrigue roll). These events are all backstage.

As for the PK being awarded Lady Adwen (or a lady above his station) may well deserve a Reckless or Selfish check, but I don't see why I should refuse it given the events of the campaign so far. Should the player go for it? Why not? Stranger things will happen in the campaign in the years to come. :)

I don't adhere strictly to historical verisimilitude. After all, these are Arthurian legends.

I do not either


In any case, it would not be hard for me to retcon the scene (which was sketchily played at the end of the session) to a more fully developed scene with Uther in the next session. In this case, let me ask you this:

1) Would it make sense for Uther to summon the PK for a court audience where he would grant these boons? Would it be a private audience or could it be a public audience?

Yes, it is always cool to be summoned by the king!
And as other have said, this is a public thing.


2) Would it make more sense for Uther to summon the PK or for the PK to ask to be granted an audience?

Yes, it is always cool to be summoned by the king!


2) Would Uther grant the PK the NPCs in question to marry (Lady Adwen and a wife above the PK's station)?

sure, if you wish it


EDITED: I should have made it clear that Uther asked that Roderick rewarded the knights (this was all done backstage so the PK don't know about it although they know they are being rewarded for saving Uther). This was done by story constraints (Uther was away in Sommerset and the PK were in Frankland.
Thanks.

As Morien and Sharpskytten said, all is well
Either the king owes Roderick a favor, or he would just buy the heiress' custodianship from Roderick (and name his own fair price)
And, I agree that checking a few Traits for this are in order: Selfish, Proud, Worldly

I would think the answer lies wherever the GM puts it.

"What could I do to win an Estate?"... Well, save the king's life is one possibility. Says right here in BoE. Uther may be reluctant to grant lands/wealth but he DEFINITELY needs loyal followers. And one way to get future loyal followers is to show everyone else what happens to current loyal followers.

"As the GM, what should I give the characters for saving the King's life?"... Well, what can you handle? Do you want them to be powerful lords? Do you want them to be given status or shiny baubles? What about heirloom blades or the 1st destrier in Britain? What about a mirror that shows your greatest desire (and why does Uther not want it anymore?). The list goes on and on.

Not to mention offices and grandiose titles bestowed by the King!

Roll with it!