It's incredible. I've been playing rpgs for about 25 years...and I started to deal with Pendragon only in these days!
I like the game, but I have a few questions.

One is about movement in combat.
I understand that this is an Initiative-less combat system (and somewhat I like it), however, I feel that the posititioning of the Movement phase is a bit...problematic, at least to me.
I try to post also here a couple of House Rules I've been thinking about these issues....but maybe this is not the right place?
Or maybe you can inspire me about how to follow official rules!

PROBLEM 1: When Movement happen
I'm refering to Core Rules ed. 5.1 page 112 Movement are the last thing to happen (Phase 5)...unless they are part of a combined action p.116, eg. a "Charge" Move-Atk) so they are solved in Phase 2.
This is the real problem to me.
Since it looks like there are quicker and slower kinds of Movements...which are quicker ot slower not because of Movement rate but only because they are combined or not with attacks!
I'm not a native English speaker...I try to explain myself with an example.

EXAMPLE
A Cymric Knight and a coward Pict Knight are 2 yards one from the other.
The Coward Pict Knight is mounted atop a charger (Movement 8 ) and since he is a coward he wants to run away.
The Cymric Knight is at foot (Movement 3 ) and defitinively wants to Move & attack the Pict ("combined action").
Rationality would say: The Pict will go away on his mount much quicker that the attacking Cymric will move.
However, if normal Phase sequence is respected the Knight is allowed to reach the pict and attack him in Phase 2....before the much quicker charger can bring the Pict away!!
I know that p. 97 says that in cases that Initiative is important "High Movement or Dex act first"....but the whol Phase thing is pretty confusonary (at least to me, as a newbie) and it is crazy that combined actions happen earlier that normal action.

I feel that I will use this house rule:
- All Move action happen first (if anyone is leaving a threteaned space an Evasion happens).
- Then all the resolutions happens.

CHARGE
I feel that waiting to be attacked is much better than move and Charge (which give you -5/+5 to adversary).
Waiting and exploiting the other's attempt of reaching you does not sound very knightly behaviour to me ....

House rule:....I feel that combined Move & Attack (essentially a charge) should also get a bonus as long with that penalty, for example +2 dmg, not just a penalty.
Do not know if this makes sense to you!

I have to honestly say that I pretty much never use the 'grid combat', or the resolution phases. Instead, I tend to eyeball things based on what the situation is: if two knights are fighting side by side against some Saxons, one can easily move to help the other after dealing with his Saxon. If they are more spread out (like knocked off their horses at some point), then it might take a round or two to 'gather the ranks'.

In your specific example, a lot depends on whether or not the horse is facing the Cymric knight. If it is, I think it might be best to do it as an evasion, as it makes sense that the Cymric knight might get there in time to slash while the horse is turning. If the horse is already turned away, then the Pict is riding away, no problem.

But like said, I don't follow those rules in detail, and mainly use movement to track things like chasing routing enemy, moving to help a comrade and the like.

I agree with Morien. While I do enjoy tactical combat situations in RPG's I don't think it's necessary or even good for a Pendragon game. Using a narrative system for combat gives the game a feeling of high adventure by removing the emphases from grid based combat and placing it on the actions of the characters. When the players face the Giant early in the GPC a tactical combat situation would have been distracting from the feel of fighting the Giant.

OK, but my example above can be played even without a proper grid....and it definitively matters whether the much quicker mounted Pict moves later (Move Phase) while the much slower Cymric move earlier (Resolution phase).

Another thing which is not very clear to me is whether "Evasion" counts as "combined action" because, if so, this also means that the Pict move only half movement.....

However, if mounted Pict movement happens earlier, there is no such a problem, since he is so quick that he has not to deal with "evasion" at all!

As others mentioned behoren I do not use the rules heren. In your example I would make an oppossed rollen. The knights weaponskill VS the Picasso horsemanship. If the Pict wins he gets away. If the knight wins he hits the Pict.
If the distance is more than the knight can move no roll is required and the Pict gets away.

Since most combat is one on one movement is less relevant and using it will distract.

As others mentioned behoren I do not use the rules heren. In your example I would make an oppossed rollen. The knights weaponskill VS the Picasso horsemanship. If the Pict wins he gets away. If the knight wins he hits the Pict.
If the distance is more than the knight can move no roll is required and the Pict gets away.

Since most combat is one on one movement is less relevant and using it will distract.


I would use the same as above, or Dex vs Sword on foot.

NT

Okay so a specific mechanical example.

On page 113 under Movement Phase it states:
"Participants in the combat who intended to move this round take their first yard of movement all at once; likewise, their second yard of movement occurs simultaneously... "

And on page 97 under Special Situations Initiative it says:
"If it is important to decide who moves or acts first, the character with the highest Movement Rate goes first. If two characters have the same Movement Rate, the person with the highest DEX has the option to decide whether he takes the initiative or lets another character move first."

Finally we have the Option Rule Combined Action on page 116:
'Move up to half of your Movement Rate (rounding up) and still fight."

So as I read it the Pict Knight would get away. As the order of movement matters we would apply the initiative rule allowing the Pict to move first and keeping him ahead of the player.

The optional rule is a little tricky but the way I would handle it is in one of these two ways:
1) Have the player resolve melee during the normal Resolution Phase and then move during the Movement Phase.

2) Have the player move during the Movement Phase and then have a special Resolution Phase to resolve his combat.

I use whichever situation applies depending on what the player wants to do. Either way the Pict would still escape.


In any case all of this can be ignored when using a narrative combat system. You could simply have the Pict Knight escape the unmounted player. It clears up a lot of the awkwardness in the combat system.

I'm start wondering if this is a game where minis & grids are not an option but they should be actively banned! (Otherwise we have all these sorts of problems...).
However, I feel it's nt just a matter of using or not using grids & minis. It's a matter of keeping the game both simple to play and other the same time balanced.
I really hate to start arguments on the table with players because of + 1 yard or less one meter....I would like all to be kept simple and clear, with no exceptions, even for movements in combined actions.




On page 113 under Movement Phase it states:
"Participants in the combat who intended to move this round take their first yard of movement all at once; likewise, their second yard of movement occurs simultaneously... "

This is very good and I really like it...but it all conflicts with page 116: "...if the Gamemaster allows combined actions, they always take place during the Resolution Phase...a character who moves during this phase...
In other words: movements in combined action act first!!




And on page 97 under Special Situations Initiative it says:
"If it is important to decide who moves or acts first, the character with the highest Movement Rate goes first. If two characters have the same Movement Rate, the person with the highest DEX has the option to decide whether he takes the initiative or lets another character move first."

This is good too...but it confuses things, especially since combined movement alway act first!!
I think I'll use this "Hig Movement or Dex acts first" for the sake of declarations: slower character declare their actions first.


MU HOUSE RULE: (Please give your comments! And tell me if it is awful or not!)
I'm really a not expert of this game, but I know my players and what kinds of arguments they will raise.
So I use this house-ruled modified Melee sequence (modifications are in bold):

1) Determination: People declare action in reverse Movement Rate sequence, or Dex (in case of ties).
2) Movement Phase: All movement happen now. People move 1 yard at the time and if they intercept one another they are engaged (one of them can declare Evasion if he has to finish the movement).
3) Resolution Phase
4) Winner Phase (In case the winner is an evading person, he can now finish the movement)
5) Loser Phase


The main modification is that Movement Phase happens BEFORE...al the rest are just obvious consequences.

MU HOUSE RULE: (Please give your comments! And tell me if it is awful or not!)
I'm really a not expert of this game, but I know my players and what kinds of arguments they will raise.
So I use this house-ruled modified Melee sequence (modifications are in bold):

1) Determination: People declare action in reverse Movement Rate sequence, or Dex (in case of ties).
2) Movement Phase: All movement happen now. People move 1 yard at the time and if they intercept one another they are engaged (one of them can declare Evasion if he has to finish the movement).
3) Resolution Phase
4) Winner Phase (In case the winner is an evading person, he can now finish the movement)
5) Loser Phase


Declaring one's intentions first is dangerous. After all, if you select Defensive and I get to pick after you, I can easily move away or hit one of the other guys (if they are within range), while ignoring you. Or if you are ignoring me, I can choose Berserk Attack without risk to myself and remove your head. Thus, in my game, all declarations are done simultaneously (GM makes his decisions first for the NPCs, but doesn't tell the players until aftre they declare theirs).

My advice:
Ditch the phase rules. Go with the flow. The Pict is trying to escape. The Knight wishes to engage. Is it a situation where he conceivably might get there in time? If it is, then the Knight gets a chance to slash, with the Pict trying to Evade with Horsemanship. If the Pict already positioned himself to escape last round, and the Knight is just reacting onto it now, then sorry, that Pict is gone.

I do agree that the Phase rules do reflect a grid gameplay mechanic from the 80s, in my humble opinion. Perhaps why so many of us have ditched them in favor of a more narrative gameplay. if you wish to cling to that, then yes, resolving all movement simultaneously is probably wise (but account for the fact that horse doesn't go very fast while backing up, so it probably tries to turn first, which takes time). The GM is not a stupid computer but is able to interpret the rules, especially in those silly turn-based movement things. :)

Sorry to resurrect this thread, but I have a relevant follow-up question.

My group has taken to gaming on Roll20, which is fantastic because:

1.) You can automate a lot of the die rolls, speeding things up dramatically (once you have everything set up correctly — until then it can actually slow things down).

2.) You can play remotely, which is the only way I can sustain a group these days.

3.) I enjoy making maps, and it dramatically helps explain the lay of the land and the tactical situation at hand, especially with combats of more than 5-6 combatants.

4.) You can use handouts, and musical loops and snippets, etc. to enhance the experience overall.

The system employs a grid (or not) and so we tried it last night with the Rules as Written. I experienced the same issues reported above. So my question:

Does anyone know of a grid-based movement system that might provide a better model? I know of several, obviously, but wanted to know if there are any favorites or stand-outs.

We could still use a narrative approach, combined with the maps, but they fairly beg for things like movement rates, etc., and bring a sort of tactic drama of their own. They certainly aid in understanding and visualizing the situation and reduce questions about who's engaged with who and and "where are they, again?" types of questions. I have enough to keep up with—I don't want to juggle the relative positions of a dozen+ guys in my head.

Now would be a good time to start thinking of a revisions for a future (possible) PENDRAGON 6.


T.

Now would be a good time to start thinking of a revisions for a future (possible) PENDRAGON 6.


I think I already said my piece in the previous... Ditch the phases altogether and let the things flow more smoothly.

If there is to be a grid based play, then you will need to fix what the darn turn length is again, something which has not been done in Pendragon. Based on the movement rate of the average man in armor (=2-3), it implies something in the order of a second or at maximum, a couple. This is reinforced by the fact of how long it takes for a downed fighter to stand up again. Which makes duels fantastically quick and pretty much ensure that unless you were standing nearby to the fighting when it started, you are not able to contribute. At least, in our games, most duels are over within 10 rounds easily, since by that time, one or the other is likely to have rolled a critical. Usually, the combat is over faster than that, but that is mainly due to the PKs usually facing enemies with poorer armor (saxon huscarls) and skills (bandits, saxon raiders).

I have actually never found a grid-based rpg that doesn't instantly drop me off from roleplaying and drops me into wargaming. Also, I have found that some players simply don't care about the hassle, and those players who do, tend, by and large, to be people who like to calculate each movement exactly to make sure that they are in a tactically advantageous position, even though it might take them some significant amount of RL time to maximise their advantages.

I agree with Morien here.
I use narrative system rather than measuring distances.