The rule about non lethal combat says that a witheld blow reduces actual damage by one half.

It's seems strange to me, because the stronger you are in combat (sword for exemple) , the more chances you have to deeply wound your opponent (if you make a critical), exactly what you try to avoid !
Did i miss something ?

I think of an optional rule : when making a critical on a witheld blow , you can choose the number of dice you throw (up to the theoric number).
Does it make sense for you ?

How about if a Critical also optionally lets the PK do something Really Cool that is appropriate to the story? For example, if it's a friendly tournament to show off skill but not risk hurting anyone in case the Saxons show up, the PK slips his sword past his foe's guard and gently places his point against his foe's throat. Skill amply demonstrated, no damage done, and the PK advances to the next round.

I use a houserule for this.

Non lethal damage is rolled just the same as with normal damage, but they do not cause an actual wound. If due to non lethal damage your hitpoints comes below your unconscious level you will fall down and are beaten. Luckily you did not receive actual wounds so after some rest you can go to the next bout.
If a critical is rolled you do double damage as normal. Except that the first dice up to your normal damage do actual damage and if this passes the armor of the opponent he gets a wound. The second set is non lethal damage as normal (no second armor reduction for this).

Example:
PK A and PK B fight each other and try not to hurt each other.
Round 1 PK A is successful and wins the combat. He does 20 points damage. PK B had a partial and gets a shield bonus. He gets a damage of 20- 10(armor)-6(shield)=4.
Round 2 PK B critically wins the combat and does 19 (first roll)+19(second roll) points damage. PK A has a partial and gets a shield bonus. He gets a wound 19-10(armor)-6(shield)=3 points (which is an actual wound). And his current hitpoints is reduced by 22 (3+19). PK A gives up as his current hitpoints is below the unconscious level.
After some rest PK B is back to his full health. PK A will needs some first aid to heal his wound.

I use a houserule for this.

Non lethal damage is rolled just the same as with normal damage, but they do not cause an actual wound. If due to non lethal damage your hitpoints comes below your unconscious level you will fall down and are beaten. Luckily you did not receive actual wounds so after some rest you can go to the next bout.
If a critical is rolled you do double damage as normal. Except that the first dice up to your normal damage do actual damage and if this passes the armor of the opponent he gets a wound. The second set is non lethal damage as normal (no second armor reduction for this).


Clubs, staffs, blackjacks, etc do non-lethal unless the damage is a Major Wound. In this case it is normal lethal damage AND the recipient is rendered unconscious. I use this to represent broken bones, concussive blows to the head, etc. If damage is under a MW, then I have them match the "damage" vs Con in an opposed roll. Failure means unconsciousness. Stiff armor protects as normal. Chain protects half, or no protection on a Critical Hit.

SDLeary

Cornelius , your houserule has the same issue than the basic rule : the better weapon capacity you have, the more chance you have to hit your opponent, despite you are trying to avoid it !

The rule about non lethal combat says that a witheld blow reduces actual damage by one half.
It's seems strange to me, because the stronger you are in combat (sword for exemple) , the more chances you have to deeply wound your opponent (if you make a critical), exactly what you try to avoid !
Did i miss something ?

One of the constants about KAP is that advantages also have disadvantages. You hate Saxons? Have fun when you marry a Saxon heiress.
Or, you have a huge damage bonus? Good luck when you try to be gentle. It comes with the territory. Can't have your cake and eat it too.
You have a really high weapon score? Good luck in trying to not critical someone. Same story: can't have it both ways at once.
It is deliberate.

The rule about non lethal combat says that a witheld blow reduces actual damage by one half.
It's seems strange to me, because the stronger you are in combat (sword for exemple) , the more chances you have to deeply wound your opponent (if you make a critical), exactly what you try to avoid !
Did i miss something ?

One of the constants about KAP is that advantages also have disadvantages. You hate Saxons? Have fun when you marry a Saxon heiress.
Or, you have a huge damage bonus? Good luck when you try to be gentle. It comes with the territory. Can't have your cake and eat it too.
You have a really high weapon score? Good luck in trying to not critical someone. Same story: can't have it both ways at once.
It is deliberate.

Could not agree more. ;)
If you are a hulking brute and you wish to be gentle. Talk, do not fight. If that fails, try grappling your opponent. With a weapon you are trained to kill.

I would like to add to this discussion, that when it comes to non-lethal combat in KAP, the object is almost always to get a Knockdown on your opponent. Thus, you want to cirt, to get double damage, and a good shot at getting a Knockdown result. And, I would add, for those that are of the Simulationist bent, this means that you have to do two thing: try to hit hard, try not to wound. I would argue, as do Greg above, that this is a hard thing to pull off, even for skilled fighters. And in the heat of combat, etc, the will to win sometimes get the best of those really skilled knights, who almost always win?

I would like to add to this discussion, that when it comes to non-lethal combat in KAP, the object is almost always to get a Knockdown on your opponent.


I generally allow PKs to 'pull their punches', but then they are basically limiting themselves for the fear of hurting the opponent, and might lose their advantage. Say, a 6d6 PK faces off against a guy with 5d6. Sure, the PK can lower his damage to 4d6 so that he is almost certain not to harm the other guy, but if the other guy is whacking back at 5d6, the PK is at a disadvantage. Like Skarpskytten said, the objective is often to cause those knockdown rolls, and going from 6d6 to 4d6 means that an almost sure thing (damage >= opponent's SIZ) just became a lot harder (a 50/50 proposition against a SIZ 14 opponent).

The rule about non lethal combat says that a witheld blow reduces actual damage by one half.
It's seems strange to me, because the stronger you are in combat (sword for exemple) , the more chances you have to deeply wound your opponent (if you make a critical), exactly what you try to avoid !
Did i miss something ?

One of the constants about KAP is that advantages also have disadvantages. You hate Saxons? Have fun when you marry a Saxon heiress.
Or, you have a huge damage bonus? Good luck when you try to be gentle. It comes with the territory. Can't have your cake and eat it too.
You have a really high weapon score? Good luck in trying to not critical someone. Same story: can't have it both ways at once.
It is deliberate.

Could not agree more. ;)
If you are a hulking brute and you wish to be gentle. Talk, do not fight. If that fails, try grappling your opponent. With a weapon you are trained to kill.


Thanks Greg and Cornelious for this interesting answers.
I understood high weapon skill as "i can do what i want with my weapon", and you something like "i can do very well what i'm trained for : kill".
This makes sense.

This put in mind of an incident in court with a PK, his wife and Sir Jaradan.

The PK was asked by Earl Roderick to 'take his wife in hand' as she was scaring the court with her rumourmongering. So he walk in to the middle of the court where his was chatting to some other women and slapped her hard (6D6 Damage knight here).

His wife who was Irish and a high reckless punched his back. So the PK punched her and cocked her cold. Sir Jaradan was upset by challenge the said PK to a duel.

The Earl was shocked at the actions of the PK as he only wish the PK to ask his wife to stop spreading the rumours.

This is the fun bit, they was using wooden practice swords and first to UNC. The PK fumbled and Sir Jaradan critted the roll. My dice have a bit of a rep, and rolled very high on the damage, so his 4D6 became 3D6 with the wooden sword. I rolled 18 which was then doubled to 36, Sir Jaradan did not try to pulled the blow as his was upset over the punch to the wife. This took the Knight to -8 HP. I ruled that with the fumble the PK slipped on the damp courtyard and present the back of the neck just as the wooden arrived at that point and the edge of the wooden sword broke the PK neck. The next Knight this PC had was a little more respectful to women and Sir Jaradan after a dressing down by the Earl for kill a vassal knight enjoyed the admiring looks of the ladies of the court and a the informal title of Gallant Knight of Old Rock.

In our group, we are using the following house-rules:

1) Withheld Blow: Declare how many dice you wish to roll for damage, up to your maximum, before resolving that round's combat. You can do this with the normal, sharp weapons, too, if you are trying to not kill someone outright.

2) Blunted weapons: Divide the actual damage in half, even though knockdown is calculated from real damage.

3) If you fumble, you move into the blow: use full damage even if the blow was withheld/struck with a blunted weapon in addition to other fumble results. Alternatively, if the GM is feeling especially evil and you were trying to take whoever it was alive, you might actually hit instead with full damage. Whatever makes for trouble.

4) Critical with blunted weapons/withheld blow doesn't cause extra damage, unless you are trying to kill the guy, in which case normal rules apply (+4d6 damage, halved for blunted blades).


EDIT: Nice story, Tanty!