With a few minutes to waste I thought I would put together a quick chart of the members of King Arthur's Family with their birth and deaths. I started with dates as published in the GPC and thought I would extrapolate the rest. I also used the dates in the family background chapter of 5.0. This is when I noticed a problem with Uther's age. I suspect that most players don't worry about when the people were born and died except how they need it for their story. I am hoping thst there is some out there that night have had the same curiosity as I do. If so do you see anything that should be modified? I may do the Gales and Ganis clans as well.

Anyway, attached is the chart I was working on in preliminary form. I hope to one day get another group together to play Pendragon and I want to have potential handouts available.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2qoouvj7l7s0v0h/Pendragon%20Family.png?dl=0

Nice.

Constans seems a bit young for a King, too.

Yeah, Uther is way too young ('almost 40') and Madog way too old (33) in the Gamemaster Characters section of GPC. I have a feeling this has been pointed out before, too... Making Madog 23 helps a lot. Alternatively, adding 10 years to Uther's life, although that makes it even more peculiar that he hasn't married and gotten a legitimate heir yet.

What are you using for the dates of the births? I can't find them for Uther and his brothers, nor for the Orkney Brothers, save Gawaine, who is in the GPC born in 493, not 495. I am guessing the Boy King, in which Gawaine's birthdate is given 495 and Guinever's 497.

Also, see this thread:
http://nocturnal-media.com/forum/index.php?topic=1837.msg14659#msg14659

King Constantin, Uther's father, is killed in 440 according to pg 46 of Pendragon 5.0. Since Constans is crowned in the entry for 441-442, I assume that Constantin is killed near the end of the year. Constans is said to be young and bookish and looks to Vortigern for advice. I have made to assumptions here. One, Vortigern is acting as regent. Constans is king in name only suggesting he is under 16 at least. Two, Vortigern is not Constans blood uncle, although it would be interesting to model him after Richard III. Uncle is used in that listing as just a man of his father's generation. Constans being killed in 443, I was debating on making him 15-18 and possibly old enough to no longer need a regent. The York heirs certainly seemed to fight in battles and even lead at very young ages.

For Uther, the "almost 40" in 485 can't work if his father was killed in 440. Like Henry VII, thought that he might have been born after his father's death, making him 43-44 at the beginning of 485, I also didn't want him too old in 491. Uther in Boorman's Excalibur seemed to be 35-40 and that was how I pictured him.

I agree that Madoc should be about 23.

I did take Gawaine from The Boy King as I couldn't find a listing in GPC, As for Agravaine, I recall reading a book that said he was a year younger than Gawaine but not sure which novel it was. Gaheris was a guess, making him old enough to be with Morgause for the embassy but close enough to Gareth to marry in the same year.

Do we know how Cador of Cornwall is related to Arthur?

Some tales say that he is a brother by the same mother. Others say he is a cousin. In my mind, I go with the later. The references that I`ve found don't associate him with Gorlois. Just Ygraine.

Some tales say that he is a brother by the same mother. Others say he is a cousin. In my mind, I go with the later. The references that I`ve found don't associate him with Gorlois. Just Ygraine.


I made him into Ygraines brother.

Some tales say that he is a brother by the same mother. Others say he is a cousin. In my mind, I go with the later. The references that I`ve found don't associate him with Gorlois. Just Ygraine.


I made him into Ygraines brother.


As you can guess, I am a little obsessed with ages as well as where they fit into the family. I have always pictured Constantine being in his twenties or early thirties when he becomes King after Camlann.

At one time I tried to compress the timeline from the Nobles book, I think it was, so you didn't have a bunch of 60+ knights fighting the Battle of Camlann. I couldn't get it to work.

4th ed "Saxons"

418: Constantin sires his first son, Constans, whom he
entrusts to a monastery in Venta Belgarum

425: Constantin’s next son is Ambrosius Aurelius, named
for his distant relative St. Ambrose.

436: Constantin sires his last son, Uther. Both Ambrosius
and Uther are fostered by Cuithelinus, Archbishop of
London.

thus if Madoc is 33 in 485 Uther begat him at 16

not sure if this helps

As you can guess, I am a little obsessed with ages as well as where they fit into the family. I have always pictured Constantine being in his twenties or early thirties when he becomes King after Camlann.

At one time I tried to compress the timeline from the Nobles book, I think it was, so you didn't have a bunch of 60+ knights fighting the Battle of Camlann. I couldn't get it to work.


GPC gives Constantine's birth as 511. He replaces Sir Kay as the Royal Steward in 549, so it would not be difficult, in principle, to make him more youthful, like 10 years and make is write-up 550 instead of 540 as it is in the Gamemaster Characters -section of GPC. This then results him being 44 or so at the Battle of Camlann. Still a bit on the older side, but not too bad. Also, it gives him some more status after being the Royal Steward for 15 years or so, and also the authority of being a true and tested knight, rather than some callow youth.

I don't think we have a year of death for Cador... However, this would make Cador in his 70s before he sires Constantine! Obvious answer is to make Cador younger as well. There is no particular reason to have him 44 in 496. 34 (born 462) would work just as well and give him an almost decade-long career in Duke Gorlois' service before the latter's death in 491, and make him more contemporary with Ygraine (born 464), making it more believable that they'd be full siblings.

Yes, I agree that part of the 'problem' of the long timeline is that Arthur & co are all white-bearded by the Battle of Camlann. On the other hand, that might be part of the reason why Camlann happens, as the Great Knights are starting to become more old and feeble, and Mordred is feeling the clock tick-tock away, with Arthur apparently going to live forever! :)

Alternative dates for Badon are 493 - 500, and Camlann is 537 in the Annales Cambriae. So you'll get 37 - 44 years between Badon and Camlann. GPC has 518 and 565, resulting in 47 years between the battles. Naturally, it would be a lot of work to rewrite yourself the whole GPC to fit the 500 and 537 dates, but you probably could cut a couple of years between 510 - 518 without too much bother and have Battle of Badon around 515 or so. That would give you Battle of Camlann around 552, taking the 37 year interval, which you can obtain by cutting 10 years (Romance Period?) away. That would result in Arthur being a mere 60 year old stripling at the time of Camlann, Mordred about 40 (at his prime), and Lancelot 45. If you also make Constantine younger (born 521 instead of 511), he'd be 31.

As you can guess, I am a little obsessed with ages as well as where they fit into the family. I have always pictured Constantine being in his twenties or early thirties when he becomes King after Camlann.

Well, so am I. Unfortunately I am miles and miles from my notes, so I cant check my latest take on this problem. In my old campaign I made Constantin older, to keep Cador from becoming such an old father (as Morien pointed out above).


At one time I tried to compress the timeline from the Nobles book, I think it was, so you didn't have a bunch of 60+ knights fighting the Battle of Camlann. I couldn't get it to work.


If I ever get around to running the PGC again, I might cut ten years out of Arthurs reign, mostly from the Conquest Era, which I find the least interesting.

If I ever get around to running the PGC again, I might cut ten years out of Arthurs reign, mostly from the Conquest Era, which I find the least interesting.


That leaves Roman War quite truncated, though.

I was just rereading the GPC to see where it could be 'tightened up'.

Boy King:
510 - 513 is pretty busy. Well, 511 is not very, but there is a reason for that, as far as Lot is concerned... You could push the events of 512 to 511, Arthur using Lot being busy to knock the Centurion King out in the battle of the Bassus River. That 'saves' a year.
514 is the wedding and mopping up.
515 is pretty eventless (for PKs).
516-518 Saxon Wars.

Now I can see why the Saxons might prefer letting the Britons fight it out amongst themselves, rather than poke in and maybe get the Britons to join against them. But after 513, 514 at the latest, they 'ought' to be moving against Arthur while Arthur is still consolidating his high kingship. That would shorten the timeline by two years. You could pack it up even tighter, if you really wanted to, but that is starting to push it.

In any case, that is three years from the timeline, allowing Badon to happen in 515. Another thing is of course having Arthur draw the blade at 16 instead of 18, and really be The Boy King. That is pushing it a bit against Natanleod's death, though.

Conquest
New (Badon at 515) / Old Timeline (GPC events)
516 519+520
517 521+522+523
518 524+525
519 526
520 527
521 528+529
522 530

I managed to shorten it by 5 years without too much trouble. Of course, this means that Lancelot needs to be born in 500 in order to be introduced at court in the new timeline 518.

I actually find Conquest reasonably interesting (perhaps because we skipped half of it in our first play through, due to a total party kill at Badon and waiting for the heirs to grow up): you have the surly Saxons, recently conquered, new lands being awarded, trouble with Proud Saxon wives and their offspring... Lots of interesting stuff there, and of course, all the Round Table still young and vibrant, building their reputations.

Romance and Tournament timelines are easily compressed, as most of the events have to do with famous stories about Tristram (early Romance especially, but covering both periods) or Percival (late Romance), and the PKs would mainly be participating as spectators if at all. So one could easily cram several of those events into the same year. The only thing is that you need to give Galahad some time to grow up, so I guess that gives a roughly 18 year limit to how much you can compress Romance + Tournament before the Grail Period.

By the way, Sir Cador of Cornwall is still the head of Arthur's Household Knights in 540. Given that his birth is given as 452, this 88-year old knight is a true super-grandpa!

I don't think we have a year of death for Cador... However, this would make Cador in his 70s before he sires Constantine! Obvious answer is to make Cador younger as well.

Another possibility would be to make Constantine Cador's grandson. The GPC list Cador of Cornwall as becoming a Knight of the Round Table in 525. That seems implausible if we are talking about the Cador of Cornwall who was one of the Eager Vassels. That Cador is a famous warrior, a kinsman of Arthur, and one of Arthur's earliest supporters. He would almost certainly be one of Arthur's first picks for the Round Table back in 514 rather than having to wait 11 years to join the RT. So it makes more sense for the Cador who joins the Round Table in 525 to be the famous Cador's son. And Constantine would in turn be his son (thus still qualifying as the son of Cador).

So assuming Cador the Younger sired Constantine while he was fairly young (lets say when he was 20) that would have him being born in 491, which in turn would mean Cador the Elder sired him while in his 50s. Still up there a bit in years but certainly feasible.

Another possibility would be to make Constantine Cador's grandson. The GPC list Cador of Cornwall as becoming a Knight of the Round Table in 525. That seems implausible if we are talking about the Cador of Cornwall who was one of the Eager Vassels. That Cador is a famous warrior, a kinsman of Arthur, and one of Arthur's earliest supporters. He would almost certainly be one of Arthur's first picks for the Round Table back in 514 rather than having to wait 11 years to join the RT. So it makes more sense for the Cador who joins the Round Table in 525 to be the famous Cador's son. And Constantine would in turn be his son (thus still qualifying as the son of Cador).

So assuming Cador the Younger sired Constantine while he was fairly young (lets say when he was 20) that would have him being born in 491, which in turn would mean Cador the Elder sired him while in his 50s. Still up there a bit in years but certainly feasible.


Very good points. That would also 'fix' the problem of 'Cador of Cornwall' being 88 in 540. It is Cador the Younger, who is just 50 or so, much more believable.

I don't think we have a year of death for Cador... However, this would make Cador in his 70s before he sires Constantine! Obvious answer is to make Cador younger as well.

Another possibility would be to make Constantine Cador's grandson. The GPC list Cador of Cornwall as becoming a Knight of the Round Table in 525. That seems implausible if we are talking about the Cador of Cornwall who was one of the Eager Vassels. That Cador is a famous warrior, a kinsman of Arthur, and one of Arthur's earliest supporters. He would almost certainly be one of Arthur's first picks for the Round Table back in 514 rather than having to wait 11 years to join the RT. So it makes more sense for the Cador who joins the Round Table in 525 to be the famous Cador's son. And Constantine would in turn be his son (thus still qualifying as the son of Cador).

So assuming Cador the Younger sired Constantine while he was fairly young (lets say when he was 20) that would have him being born in 491, which in turn would mean Cador the Elder sired him while in his 50s. Still up there a bit in years but certainly feasible.


Excellent idea, especially when you think how common it is that people can be intentionally or unintentionally merged in the histories of this time period. Case in point, Myrddin Wyllt and Ambrosius Aurelianus becoming Myrddin Emrys. If father and son have the same name, even easier to merge the two.

This is what I have come up with:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dwv18cj9yx9qlgz/Pendragon%20Family%20LR.png?dl=0

And the Cornwall branch:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dx0cz15u612arby/pendragon%20Cornwall%201.png?dl=0

Pendragon -branch:

Arthur's and Guinevere's daughters are not canon, and would actually thwart Mordred's succession plans.

Lot is born 467 in GPC, not 470. I think making him a few years older works better. He'd be just what, 22, in 492 when he is supposed to marry Morgause.

Morgause and Elaine are quite young to marry in 492 (13 and 12). However, I'd say that the consumation doesn't happen until later, in 494-5 in Morgause's case and a year later for Elaine. This would be backed up by Gawaine's birth in 495, but in GPC, he is born 493. Also, Gawaine is a knight already in 514, during Arthur's Wedding with Guinevere. While not impossible that he would be knighted while 17 or so, it might be better if he is a bit older. That would need Morgause to be older, though, which would push Ygraine to be older, as well.

Morgause visits Arthur in 511, and Gawaine, Argavaine and Gaheris are mentioned as being with her. Gawaine is incorrectly called 'Sir Gawaine' in the text, which I am happy to chalk up to an error, although it needed be that, necessarely. He could have been knighted early, as a prodigy and also as a Prince. I also like the idea of Gawaine being a knight and fighting at his Father's side at Terrabil in 513. That gives his hatred of Pellinore some real impetus, as he is there in person, watching his father get cut down. Also, that serves to explain why Arthur is hanging onto Lothian, while he clearly trusts Gawaine later and keeps him as a heir presumptive; Gawaine fought against the High King and it is Just that 'rebels' are punished. This is in contrast to how Arthur treated Malahaut, but then again, maybe he was in a hurry to make peace with Malahaut in the previous year...

This was my best guess for ages of Orkney -brothers:


GPC states:

Gawaine: Born 493.
Mordred: Born 510. (However! Morgawse visits Arthur in 511 and the May Babies is 512, so I do believe this is off by a year!)

By a cursory glance, I didn't notice the ages of the other Orkneys. However, I can't shake the feeling that I read somewhere that Agravaine would have been born couple of years after Gawaine (making his birth 495), Gaheris a couple of years after that (497?), and Gareth around 500.

Gaheris becomes a RTK in 521, but that is only a guideline to his age, as Gawaine himself made the cut in 517 (at the age of 24). I couldn't find any mention of Gareth's RTK career, nor Agravaine's, although Agravaine's most probable year is 518 for Badon.

From Mallory, Gareth appears after the Roman War, and interacts with Lancelot. So it should be in late 520s, but that makes him darn old for a 'young man' if he has born already in 500. Pushing his birth back to 507 or so would solve this nicely, and explain why the other three older brothers appear in 511, but no mention of Gareth is made.

A Pendragon adventure, The Grey Knight, is set in 515 and refers to Agravaine and Gaheris as knights. Gaheris is also said to be only a few years younger than his two older brothers. 497-ish would therefore make sense, although make Gaheris a rather young knight at 18. But not impossibly so. Agravaine would be young at 20, if he was born in 495.


Morgan's marriage is in 501, which would make her (barely) 16 years old. Still within reason, though.

Gorlois is dealt with in the Cornwall -branch.


Cornwall -branch:

Cador (the Elder) is born 452 in GPC. Thus, he is quite unlikely to be the son of Ygraine's little sister, since Ygraine is born 464, twelve years later. Cador works much better as Ygraine's Uncle or Cousin or even older brother, although the latter does have the problem of the question why doesn't Cador get pardoned by Uther. Of course, it could be that he was, but Cador is too loyal to Gorlois' memory to serve a pig like Uther... Or even, you could make the elder Cador the husband of Ygraine's little sister, and hence Cador the Younger is Ygraine's nephew and Arthur's cousin.

Gorlois' birthdate is given as 429 in GPC, not 433.

Are all the wives/husbands/children of the Cador-branch canonical, or are they from your own campaign/ideas?

Pendragon -branch:


Arthur's and Guinevere's daughters are not canon, and would actually thwart Mordred's succession plans.

“Gwydre is similarly unlucky, being slaughtered by the giant boar Twrch Trwyth in Culhwch and Olwen.” Canon is relative. Many novels add, subtract and combine characters. Gwydre dies young, probably before an age where he would make a difference or gain the attention of the historians. I would add him as a complication to Mordred’s plans. The daughter will also just be a complication. I added her as a favour to a friend. I am laying a foundation to getting another game going before I end up in the Crystal Cave... I actually have two files, one with and one without the daughter. I posted the wrong chart.


Lot is born 467 in GPC, not 470. I think making him a few years older works better. He'd be just what, 22, in 492 when he is supposed to marry Morgause.

I couldn’t find that date anywhere but the Gamemaster character sheet file. I was debating on using that date and then forgot to update. I wasn't sure if it was an error.


Morgause and Elaine are quite young to marry in 492 (13 and 12).

So much happens that it is hard to get everything to fit. If I move Morgause to 476 and Elaine to 477 would make them 16 and 15 when they were married. Certainly that would fit medieval possibilities. I am therefore keeping Gawaine’s birth to be 495, Agravaine 497 and Move Gareth to 500. I don’t want to change their ages too much as I don’t want Ygraine to be out of her early 30s when she gives birth to Arthur.

Cornwall -branch:


Cador (the Elder) is born 452 in GPC. Thus, he is quite unlikely to be the son of Ygraine's little sister, since Ygraine is born 464

I’ve moved Ygraine to 459. Tywynwedd is actually an older sister but I did the chart wrong.


Are all the wives/husbands/children of the Cador-branch canonical, or are they from your own campaign/ideas?

I am using a couple sites on-line and a book on mythology. Tywynwedd is listed as a daughter of Amlawdd on Nightbringer and he is also the father of Ygraine on that same site. Are they originally related in this way, probably not but I am using it in the same way we had Idres the father of Mark.
“Eigyr - (the fair Ygraine (Igraine) of romance - and mother of King Arthur, is likewise said to have been the daughter of Anlawdd, by Gwen (or Gwenn)”
I can’t find where I saw Anna being the wife of Cador. It was an alternate name for her that I could pronounce and wasn’t already taken.

“A Cador, the son of the King of Cornwall, brother of Guignier and friend of Carados Briefbras, may be the same character, or even the son of this Cador.”
“Cador

Brother of Guignier, the maiden who married Arthur’s Sir Caradoc. He was wounded when a knight named Alardin abducted his sister, and became friends with Caradoc when he rescued her. He accompanied Caradoc to Arthur’s court and married Ydain, one of the ladies there.

“CABARENTIN
The good King of Cornwall in the Vulgate Lancelot; a vassal of Arthur.
He assisted Arthur in the campaign against King Claudas of Gaul, and he led a division against Mordred at the battle of Salisbury. Presumably, he was slain there.

“Clement
A prince of Cornwall and father of Arthur's warrior Pedrog Splintered-Spear.”

I read somewhere that Constantine was deposed 2-3 years after he became high king by his nephew. That nephew was also deposed after about the same time period. Easiest place to put Cabarentin and Clement is as brothers of Cador. I am undecided if I should move them to le jeune or leave them with l'aîné.

Sure, in your campaign you can do what you will. I am of course commenting mainly based on GPC, since that is the 'common canon' that we have easy access to.

The problem is still there with Cador the Elder being born in 452, if he is Ygraine's nephew. That means that Ygraine's older sister would have had to be born around 436 at the very latest, which means there is 23 year age difference. Not impossible, of course, but it would be easier to make Cador the Elder the brother or brother-in-law of Ygraine, instead.

Also, in GPC, Cador is the household knight of Gorlois. This is unlikely be so if he is the Prince of Cornwall, as a son of the King of Cornwall (and thus related to Idres, Gorlois' old enemy). Well, of course he could be a rival prince to Idres. Like cousin or some such, that would work. Plenty of examples of kin strife in Medieval Wales, where almost no generation passed without a civil war.

There is no 'Good King of Cornwall' in GPC. King Mark survives until after Camlann. Also, if Cabarentin and Clarent are brothers of Cador the Elder, they would be pushing triple digits by Camlann.

The thing with the tales of King Arthur is that there are so many different stories and versions and so forth. The Arthur of Culhwch and Olwen is totally different from King Arthur of Malory, and even more different from the weak King Arthur who is constantly in need of being rescued by Lancelot or other French knights in some of the versions. It easily becomes a mess if you try to add EVERYONE in. This is already evident in Malory, which is a compilation as well and has some continuity problems (Excalibur, for example). Of course, if that is what you want to do, more power to you. Me, I am happy as long as I can keep the Big Names in a rough order. :)