Sir Maugan is married to Lady Adwenn (from the corebook), who herself had 4 manors (2 demesne and 4 enfeoffed). They have an underage son. Sir Maugan dies in the Battle of St. Albans.

1) Do the manors revert o Lady Adwenn or is the son the rightful heir?

2) Is she her son's guardian until his coming of age or does Countess Ellen (Earl Roderick is dead) appoints a legal guardian?

3) If there is a legal guardian, how does it work exactly? Does he move into the manor? Does he gain glory from the manors? Does he receive the stipend from the manors? Or is he just a household knight?

4) What if Lady Ellen is willing to marry again? Since she's a first time window, can Countess Ellen arrange a marriage with another knight?

5) What if they have children? Is the son from the marriage with Sir Maugan still the rightful heir?

Sir Maugan is married to Lady Adwenn (from the corebook), who herself had 4 manors (2 demesne and 4 enfeoffed). They have an underage son. Sir Maugan dies in the Battle of St. Albans.


Just as a quick aside, you do know that demesne manors require knight service, too, right? Since there was confusion about terms way back when and demesne manors were sometimes described as £6 free income per year, to be used any which way. Not pertinent to your question, just thought I'd mention it.

Also, for everyone else who hasn't yet used those heiresses, see Greg's thread in this subforum, Heiresses Revised:
http://nocturnal-media.com/forum/index.php?topic=2364.0
The Heiresses in the KAP 5.1 are way too rich for mere vassal knights.



1) Do the manors revert o Lady Adwenn or is the son the rightful heir?


Both. The son as the eldest son is the rightful heir, ONCE he is of age. However, the mother (Lady Adwen) may still exercise control over the manor during her son's infancy, although see below.



2) Is she her son's guardian until his coming of age or does Countess Ellen (Earl Roderick is dead) appoints a legal guardian?


It wouldn't matter if she would be, since as a widow, she would still be under the liege lord's (or lady's, as the case may be) control as a ward. In our campaign, the mother and the son would likely not be separated. The Countess is the legal guardian of both, although she can reward a trusted knight with the wardship of the son.



3) If there is a legal guardian, how does it work exactly? Does he move into the manor? Does he gain glory from the manors? Does he receive the stipend from the manors? Or is he just a household knight?


If he is appointed as the guardian, then yes, he will act as if he were the father of the ward for all intents and purposes of manorial control.



4) What if Lady Ellen is willing to marry again? Since she's a first time window, can Countess Ellen arrange a marriage with another knight?


Lady Adwen, I assume? Yes, the Countess can marry her off to another knight, who would gain control of the manors through her during her son's infancy. While the most elegant solution might be to marry Adwen off to the legal guardian, this does put the new step-father in the proximity of a rather big temptation of getting rid of the boy so that his own heirs can inherit. Hence, might be best to put the boy in the care of his paternal family, like an uncle or something, if his mother is being married off again. That way, the legal guardian (uncle?) has a vested interest in ensuring that the boy survives to inherit.



5) What if they have children? Is the son from the marriage with Sir Maugan still the rightful heir?


Yep. The eldest son of Lady Adwen inherits the lot. As long as Sir Maugan's son survives, it doesn't matter how many sons come from the second marriage.

I'll take a stab at this. I am no expert so take my suggestions with a grain of salt.


1) Do the manors revert o Lady Adwenn or is the son the rightful heir?

The inheritance passes through the bloodline. The oldest son inherits, if there is no oldest son, the lands are split between the surviving daughters. For a historical example look up the Pembroke earldom. The wife does not take her husbands property, but if there are no heirs, the properties that belonged to her family would revert to her and the properties of her dead husband would move to the next oldest son (the husband's brother/son's uncle).

Age doesn't change who inherits, but might change who gets funds. I am not as sure about that.

In this example, the son inherits. If the son were to die, Lady Adwen would get her properties back.


2) Is she her son's guardian until his coming of age or does Countess Ellen (Earl Roderick is dead) appoints a legal guardian?

I had a similar situation and had Count Roderick act as the Guardian of the estate, taking the income and glory until the child came of age. I imagine the same would hold true for Ellen, except without a king in anarchy, anyone that can take and defend the lands probably has as good a claim as anyone. I guess if Adwen could protect the lands she could be the guardian as well. Might makes right during anarchy. Might be a good opportunity for adventure!


3) If there is a legal guardian, how does it work exactly? Does he move into the manor? Does he gain glory from the manors? Does he receive the stipend from the manors? Or is he just a household knight?

Again, not positive here, but my understanding is a the Guardian would get the income and glory. In my example, I had Roderick as the Guardian and he appointed a Household Knight as a live in protector and caretaker of the estate. Roderick got the income and glory, but also the responsibility to protect the estate, which he delegated to his HHK.


4) What if Lady Ellen is willing to marry again? Since she's a first time window, can Countess Ellen arrange a marriage with another knight?

Yes, but the husband would not gain lands and his children would not inherit. Ellen might allow the husband to become the Guardian and take the income, but that would stop when the heir came of age. Ellen would also lose those funds if she was the Guardian so she might not want to do that.

If I were Adwen, I would be hesitant to marry without the ability to protect my son. If the son mysteriously had an "accident" and died, then the husband's children would inherit Adwen's lands, but I think the original manor would revert to the son's uncle in that situation. I may be wrong here.


5) What if they have children? Is the son from the marriage with Sir Maugan still the rightful heir?

Yes, unless he died.

Anarchy means you can be flexible here. Lots of room for backstabbing and politics if that is something your group enjoys.

Edit: Ninja'd by Morien. 8)
Edit #2: Corrected statement about the oldest daughter inheriting when it should be split between surviving daughters per Book of the Estate/Warlord and historical example.

The inheritance passes through the bloodline. The oldest son inherits, if there is no oldest son, the oldest daughter inherits. The wife does not take her husbands property, but if there are no heirs, the properties that belonged to her family would revert to her and the properties of her dead husband would move to the next oldest son (the husband's brother/son's uncle).


This is something that cannot be stressed enough. Follow the bloodline. For instance, if Sir Maugan would have been married before, and would have had a son from an earlier marriage, we would have this situation:

Sir Maugan's heir: HIS eldest son, i.e. the son from the first marriage, inherits HIS manors (so presumably the original family manor + any manors awarded to Maugan personally).

Lady Adwen's heir: HER eldest son, the son being discussed here, inherits HER manors, but NOT Maugan's manors in the above, which go to Maugan's eldest son.

Here is a thread where we went through the inheritance issues in detail, dwarinpt: http://nocturnal-media.com/forum/index.php?topic=2623.msg19556#msg19556



I imagine the same would hold true for Ellen, except without a king in anarchy, anyone that can take and defend the lands probably has as good a claim as anyone. I guess if Adwen could protect the lands she could be the guardian as well. Might makes right during anarchy. Might be a good opportunity for adventure!


I'll just note here that Countess Ellen has a very vested interest in making sure that her knights 'obey the rules'. After all, she owes her position to the fact that her infant son is the true heir. If she allows other infant boys to be usurped during her watch, this cannot but reflect poorly on her own situation and also bring to question if a woman is strong enough to guide Salisbury during these dangerous times.




Again, not positive here, but my understanding is a the Guardian would get the income and glory. In my example, I had Roderick as the Guardian and he appointed a Household Knight as a live in protector and caretaker of the estate. Roderick got the income and glory, but also the responsibility to protect the estate, which he delegated to his HHK.


Correct. Any other guardian could do the same, too, say another PK who already has his own manor could appoint a household knight to protect the manor while raising the kid in his own household.



If the son mysteriously had an "accident" and died, then the husband's children would inherit Adwen's lands, but I think the original manor would revert to the son's uncle in that situation. I may be wrong here.


This is correct.


Anarchy means you can be flexible here. Lots of room for backstabbing and politics if that is something your group enjoys.

Yes, but see my note re: Countess Ellen's own position in above.



Edit: Ninja'd by Morien. 8)


This is also correct. :)

The inheritance passes through the bloodline. The oldest son inherits, if there is no oldest son, the oldest daughter inherits.

As anyone who has looked at the Wars of the Roses knows, this was a huge issue. When there was no male heir, the daughters were considered 'heirs general' and any title went to the husband of the eldest, jure uxoris. Look at the Neville family; including Richard Neville, Earl of Warwick. Interesting stuff if anyone wants to see how it worked and the problems coming out of inheritance laws.

The inheritance passes through the bloodline. The oldest son inherits, if there is no oldest son, the oldest daughter inherits.

As anyone who has looked at the Wars of the Roses knows, this was a huge issue. When there was no male heir, the daughters were considered 'heirs general' and any title went to the husband of the eldest, jure uxoris. Look at the Neville family; including Richard Neville, Earl of Warwick. Interesting stuff if anyone wants to see how it worked and the problems coming out of inheritance laws.


Good point, and also something I didn't notice to correct in luckythirteen's comment... It is not the OLDEST daughter, it is ALL the daughters. The honour/estate/holding/manor gets split (in theory equally, in practice lots of wrangling between the heiresses' husbands) and each heiress gets a piece. Since it is a man's world, it is the husband of the heiress (or the guardian, if she is unwed), who controls the inherited land.

EDIT: Just to add that luckythirteen is right as to what is said about inheritance in KAP 5.1. However, ESTATE and WARLORD 'correct' this to be more in line with the inheritance laws of Medieval England.

Sure enough. I missed that, thanks for pointing it out. I will edit my post to avoid confusion.