Just a clarification on a situation I'm dealing with at the moment. I've always found the income rules a little bit vague, so I'd like to ensure I'm getting this right.

A player knight owns a manor, producing, usually, £6 a year in taxes and food. This is just enough to pay for his upkeep each year.

The knight marries a lady with holdings of two demesne manors. This means he will take control of those two manors in addition to his current one. He hires stewards for the two new manors. His current manor supplies his upkeep, so the two new manors, on ordinary years, will supply surplus income of £12, minus the cost of hiring sstewards, so £10.

His heir will inherit all three manors and begin play with £10 average expendable income a year.

Are all the above statements correct?

In addition, are there rules for determining how the size of a knight's army increases and how many family knights he gains when marrying into a new family and/or obtaining new lands? And am I correct in assuming that, after beginning the campaign, any additional family members the player wishes to be knighted must be afforded equipment worth £8 before the knighthood can occur?

Just a clarification on a situation I'm dealing with at the moment. I've always found the income rules a little bit vague, so I'd like to ensure I'm getting this right.


Always a good thing to do and yes, the current rules are vague, all the more so since there has been some development on that front since 5th edition was published...

So a short answer, no, not all of your statements were correct. I'll answer the individual ones below.



A player knight owns a manor, producing, usually, £6 a year in taxes and food. This is just enough to pay for his upkeep each year.


Correct enough. The manor is actually producing, all in al,l £20 of which £10 goes to servants, £6 goes to maintain the knight (his squire and his horses) and his family (wife, kids) and the remaining £4 is for three foot soldiers, one personal maid to the Lady (NOT a lady-in-waiting but a commoner) and a chaplain (who also acts as a secretary of sorts for the Lord) and £1 left over as Discretionary Fund. This will be addressed in the errataed edition of the Book of the Estate that is in the works at the moment, but the basic model is already in the Book of the Warlord (geared for holdings £100+, though).

However, as far as your players see it, you are fine using the £6 / manor for the knight (and ignore the +£1 extra spending money, if you wish).



The knight marries a lady with holdings of two demesne manors. This means he will take control of those two manors in addition to his current one. He hires stewards for the two new manors. His current manor supplies his upkeep, so the two new manors, on ordinary years, will supply surplus income of £12, minus the cost of hiring sstewards, so £10.


Demesne -term has been used and abused horribly in the past. Manors that do not require any knight-service (fee simple) are rarer than hen's teeth. In fact, other than the King's own manors, they should be nigh non-existent. Hence, in the Book of the Warlord, we finally clarified this:

Demesne manors still require knight service.
Demesne = held by the lord directly, so he hires a household knight (£4). (The starting manor would be classified as a demesne manor, too, with the knight being the lord of the manor himself.)
Enfeoffed = held by a vassal knight of the lord, so he doesn't get any income from this manor.

So in the case of your example, the manors are producing £12 / year. However, they require two household knights (-£8) so the actual saved income is 'only' £4 / year. The PK, now a proud 'owner' of 3 manors, should dress up to show it, so I'd strongly encourage the player to upgrade his knight to Rich with these funds: failure to do so would result in Selfish checks and in the scorn of his peers, which might result in Honor loss and definitely in the loss of prestige for being a 'bean-counting miserly merchant'. This leaves £1 left over. The Book of the Warlord states that you only need one steward per county, and assuming these manors are in Salisbury, technically the lady wife can handle them. However, if we are living in dangerous, dangerous times of Anarchy, I would start dropping hints if the PK really wants his wife to be riding across the county with potential Saxon raiding parties around? If not, that last £1 should go to a steward to do that riding for her.

As noted earlier, if you are feeling generous, you could give all the knights +£1 / manor extra income to ensure that the knights have a bit of income to actually spend on something. But fully up to you. Note also that Book of the Warlord specifies also that the income is actually mainly as food and clothing and such, which is consumed/wears out, and if you wish to actually hoard the income as treasure, the conversion factor is £1 income = £0.5 treasure. Again, up to you if you wish to follow that. (We ended up not bothering, in our campaign. Most of the income in the campaign is loot anyway, easily swamping the small increase in manorial income, so it is not a big deal.)



His heir will inherit all three manors and begin play with £10 average expendable income a year.


Nope. First of all, see above how it works. Secondly, his heir inherits all three manors ONLY if the heir happens to be the eldest son of both the FATHER (the starting manor) and the MOTHER (the two demesne manors). If the father has a son from a previous marriage, that son has NO CLAIM WHATSOEVER onto the two demesne manors of the heiress. And if there is a second son of the father with the heiress, that second son would only get the two demesne manors of his mother (being HER eldest son), but not his father's manor (being HIS second son). This gets even more fun when daughters get involved in the absence of any sons, since they will split the landholdings equally, by bloodline as in above. So for example, if the father has a daughter from the first marriage, and two daughters from the second, the split goes like this:
Ancestral manor of the father: 3 daughters of the father, each gets 1/3rd of the manor.
2 demesne manors of the mother: 2 daughters of the mother, each gets a manor (the step-daughter from the previous marriage gets no share of these manors).

Confused yet? :)



In addition, are there rules for determining how the size of a knight's army increases and how many family knights he gains when marrying into a new family and/or obtaining new lands? And am I correct in assuming that, after beginning the campaign, any additional family members the player wishes to be knighted must be afforded equipment worth £8 before the knighthood can occur?


As you can see, each of the demesne manors requires a household knight, and also provides 3 foot soldiers. So the PK's 'personal army' should now be: 3 knights (counting himself) and 9 foot soldiers (usually, 1 / manor is for garrison duties, leaving 6 to actually go out).

Normally, you don't gain family knights when marrying into a new family. They have their own family line to look after. In the case of an heiress, it is clear that she doesn't have any brothers who are knights, although it is possible that she would have cousins and uncles. Who might actually resent the fact that your family has 'stolen' the manors that should have been 'theirs'. Or they might be willing to be incorporated into your family, especially if you look like you might be generous in sponsoring their sons to knighthood, or actually picking your household knights from their ranks (that would probably be a fine idea, too).

£8 is the stated bare minimum (in KAP 5.1) that you need to knight a fellow, and that means you are giving him a very poor horse (rouncy). At best, he would probably only 'count' as a cavalryman at that point. Knighting is expensive business, but yes, in principle, that is the way to do it, buying equipment for deserving people. Note also that the sons (if any) of the other family knights already in existence will probably inherit their father's equipment (we have had this happen 'in the background', but you can actually keep track of this, too).

For £8, you'd have something like this:
Chainmail (£2)
Weapons (£0.5)
Two Rouncies (£2) (one for you, one for the squire; note the lack of a real warhorse!)
Sumpter (£0.5)
Other equipment (old war gear, a tent, etc, a pavillion is a luxury you can't afford!) (£1.5)
Threadbare knightly clothing (£0.5)
Minimal knighting feast (£1)

By contrast, the starting PK's 'knighting package' cost something like £34, most of that in the charger (£20). Poor chargers (or coursers) are available at £10, doing 5d6 lance damage, which is something most NPC knights would have to content themselves with.

I calculated that you could actually go as down as £5 or so (chainmail tunic, no squire's rouncy, no war gear) but at that point, you are a poor cavalryman in all but name, and no one would dream of having you as a household knight, as they'd have to upgrade your horse (£10) and at least £3 for other equipment and horses to make you comparable with the other candidates vying for the job.

So, something like:
'Poor Cavalryman' = £5
'Cavalryman' = £10
'Household Knight' = £20-£25 (poor charger / courser)
'Player Knight' = £30 - £35 (charger)

Thanks for the response.
My group are currently using the book of the Manor, book of battle, book of Armies, KAP 5.0, book of knights and ladies and the GPC. Each new book I get seems to significantly change the rules in one way or another. You say that Estate/Warlord changes the way manor ownership works entirely, but this wasn't in the Book of the Manor?

Are these two books essential for having a working, up to date economic system in the game? Also, how much of an upgrade from 5.0 is 5.1? Are the changes major?

Additionally, is it true that the player army from KAP 5.0 (Old knights, middle aged knights, young knights, lineage men and levies) no longer exists in the system? Using 5.0 creation rules for first characters, the players have invariably ended up with a great many knights in their immediate family, which may not line up with the above rules about knighting new family members. It would otherwise mean that their families were immensely wealthy until they started play.

You say that Estate/Warlord changes the way manor ownership works entirely, but this wasn't in the Book of the Manor?


You have the Book of the Manor, so you are familiar with the 'money you don't see' part of the manorial economics? That the £6 manor actually produced around £120, including the peasants? It is basically that which we will write open in revised Estate (and did in Warlord), the £20 spent on the manor itself (not the £100 the peasants spend to feed themselves and the family).

Frankly, it all started with the desire to make the Estate's decision to use £10+£10 manorial model to actually scale up nicely for Warlord. What does it actually MEAN if you have £100 estate? How much money should go to your Standard of Living, so that you are not 'slumming it' and so forth. In short, the formula is:
For each additional £10: +£1 Standard of Living, +£1 Discretionary Fund, +1 household knight, +3 foot soldiers.
It is a bit more complicated than that, since you get more people at the manor as well (Court members and servants), but the important bits are in the above. This will be detailed in the revised Estate a bit better.

It doesn't actually change the way that the basics work (unlike the unrevised Estate, which is why I disliked it so much). The household knight is still £4. The knight and family are still £6, for single manor, etc. And no one is forcing you to use it. You can continue happily playing away the way you have.

The only thing that you REALLY want to change is the definition of the demesne manor to the current one. It was never supposed to be free money without any obligations. This is one of those huge ERRATA points in Book of the Manor. (I'd also change the harvest rules, you can find my suggestion in the house rules section, if you are interested.)



Are these two books essential for having a working, up to date economic system in the game? Also, how much of an upgrade from 5.0 is 5.1? Are the changes major?


Nah. You will be fine with what you have. Frankly, the only essential books are the core rules (5.0 or 5.1) and GPC. All the rest is nice to have, not MUST to have.

The Warlord is a great book if you want to get an overview on how the barons are organized, what castles Logres has, and so forth, but if you are playing on vassal knight level, they are hardly essential. Estate did the same for Estates (£30 - £100+) and once revised, it will be a good resource for the level of play you seem to be in. So I'd recommend (revised) Estate, if you can afford it and are interested in this stuff. But again, hardly essential.

I'll be honest and say that I found most of the changes between 5.0 and 5.1 to be minor (and indeed, couldn't tell you without checking what they were). 5.0 is just fine.



Additionally, is it true that the player army from KAP 5.0 (Old knights, middle aged knights, young knights, lineage men and levies) no longer exists in the system? Using 5.0 creation rules for first characters, the players have invariably ended up with a great many knights in their immediate family, which may not line up with the above rules about knighting new family members. It would otherwise mean that their families were immensely wealthy until they started play.


You are making a mistake of assuming that the Family Knights are the Player Knight's 24/7 henchmen. They are not. They have their own lives and responsibilities. They do not live at the manor, but are working as household knights, mercenaries or (if very lucky) have a manor of their own somewhere. They are there if the PK needs to call on the family help, say when one of the ladies of the family have been kidnapped, or a family member has been murdered, or something like that. The equipment of the family knights is likely old, being passed down from father to son, or looted from battlefield, etc. Same with lineage men; they are most likely scattered around the county (or several), working to earn a living as esquires (noble-born professionals like Stewards, but not knighted) according to Greg, if they fall below that, they are not considered part of the family anymore). These guys still exist, but since they are not paid/maintained by the PK (usually, although the Stewards tend to be kinsmen), they do not come into the economics.

When I was talking about Army in my previous reply, I really did mean people who were at the PK's beck and call 24/7, living in the same manor (or at least in his manors) and getting paid (or rather, maintained) by the PK. Household knights and foot soldiers.

I hope this clarified things?

I have dozens more questions for every one that's been answered but this helped me realise that I don't necessarily want to spend more time simulating medieval economics, farming, inheritance and bureaucracy than I do running my players through heroic knightly adventures., court politics and fierce battles I'm thinking I'll stick with the narrative economic system for now and just work something quick and lightweight out for various manorial/vassalage issues.

Thanks!

As Morien said, the most critical takeaway is one household knight + 3 foot soldiers for every £10 (after the first £10). So you can arbitrarily determine a knight's holding to be anything you want and just apply this simple rule to it. Any "remainder" (in the event your arbitrary manor isn't neatly divisible by £10) is spent on extra foot solders. Done.

The rest of the economics model was developed to answer stuff like — do I have a messenger that I can send? DoI have an armorer that can repair my armor? Do I have musicians to entertain my guests, and if so, how good are they? Can I hire extra foot solders since the Saxons are getting too close for comfort? Keep in mind that hirelings have key skills and can be used to substitute for a Knight's own skill. These are all detailed in the BOOK OF The ENTOURAGE. Also, although the economics models seem complex, both ESTATE and WARLORD have models that you can plug 'n' play if you don't want to design your own.

Morien's right that these books aren't essential to the game, but they do come in handy when players start to ask questions about their the details of their landholding.

Best,


T.

So basically, in the new economic system, all landholders are at the minimum at the Rich level (9£+) of income, and may reach Superlative & co as their domains expand?

And, any held manor now requires a knight, be it the owner of the manor or a household knight sworn to the aforementioned knight? No more knights with 3 manors and 18£ (old system) of income?

Can the wife of the knight steward say three manors, even though two of them are "managed" by household knights sworn to her husband, or will the chief-knight need a 1£ steward for those?

Just so we're clear.

So basically, in the new economic system, all landholders are at the minimum at the Rich level (9£+) of income, and may reach Superlative & co as their domains expand?


No.

The average manor is now £10, not £6. However, there are £3 worth of 'hidden costs' (Chaplain, Lady's Maid, 3 foot soldiers), leaving the £6 for the knight and his family + £1 discretionary fund (to be spent on an entourage member or whatnot). And of course there are all the common servants fixing and serving food, doing the laundry, etc.

Each additional £10 in land adds: a household knight, 3 more foot soldiers, some more court members (administrative staff, physician, ladies' professionals, entertainers, handmaidens, etc), and +£1 to the standard of living and +£1 to the discretionary fund. And also more of those common servants.

If the land is held by a vassal, don't count it here, as all that money goes to the vassal. You'll only get the army that has been agreed upon (1 knight + 3 foot soldiers per £10).

In short:
Standard of Living: £5 + (landholdings in £)/10
Number of knights (including the landholder himself): (landholdings in £)/10
Number of foot soldiers: (landholdings in £)/10*3
Vassals' army (adds to your own): (vassal lands in £)/10 knights and (vassal lands in £)/10*3 foot soldiers



And, any held manor now requires a knight, be it the owner of the manor or a household knight sworn to the aforementioned knight?


Yep. There are fee farms which provide some extra cash, but these are rarer than hen's teeth. Not even all Barons have some.



No more knights with 3 manors and 18£ (old system) of income?


Nope. However, any investments you build are outside the knight service agreement and thus you can spend that income as you wish. Once you die, the holding escheats to the liege lord who reappraises the holding and the new servitium debitum is based on the new income of the land.

Example:
Your manor is £10 and your servitium debitum is 1 knight and 3 foot soldiers. By some insane building spree, you manage to get the income up to £20 with investments. You get to use that extra £10 as you wish. However, when you kick the bucket, your heir will have a servitium debitum based on £20: 2 knights, 6 foot soldiers.



Can the wife of the knight steward say three manors, even though two of them are "managed" by household knights sworn to her husband, or will the chief-knight need a 1£ steward for those?


The Book of the Warlord adopted a line that you'll need one professional steward (the wife counts) per county, regardless of the manors. So as long as all of your manors are in Salisbury, no problem. If you have one manor in Salisbury, another in Rydychan and a third in Tintagel, for instance, then you will need 3 stewards (wife + 2 stewards). Luckily, thanks to those (average £10) manors having that +£1 discretionary funds, you should be able to easily afford this.



Just so we're clear.


Hope this clarified things.

In short:
Standard of Living: £5 + (landholdings in £)/10

Sorry, but I don't quite get that.

Basically, if I'm a vassal knight with one manor, that means my income is £10. So, using your formula:
5+10=15, 15/10 = 1.5£

Is this my actual standard of living, or is this money I add on top of my £6/year?

Thanks for your help

In short:
Standard of Living: £5 + (landholdings in £)/10

Sorry, but I don't quite get that.

Basically, if I'm a vassal knight with one manor, that means my income is £10. So, using your formula:
5+10=15, 15/10 = 1.5£


According to normal math rules, division comes before the addition, unless there are parenthesis around it.

So it is: £5 + £10/10 = £5 + £1 = £6. That is how much income actually goes to your knight's + family's standard of living -> Ordinary Knight.

If you have £50 estate: £5 + £50/10 = £5 + £5 = £10 -> Rich Knight.

In addition, you have discretionary fund: (landholding in £)/10, so in the case of the £10 vassal knight, £1 per year to be spent on entourage or something else.

Riiighhhht :)

OK, thanks for clarifying, I'm not the greatest when it comes to maths, and obviously I should have applied the rules.

See, I wanted to play a RPG, and I ended up doing some accounting instead :)

Kids today... no respect... Why, in my days, we were calculating and dividing EXP and keeping track of every copper piece and encumbrance, to the dungeon and back, uphill both ways... :P

Oh and BTW, last question - the cost to arm a knight yourself is still around £20, correct?

I mean, if I have two manors, therefore an income of £20, I'll need one household knight as part of my servitum debitum. Say I have a younger brother, I could make him my household knight, but I'll have to cover the cost of the knighting since it's not part of the four universal aids?

Doesn't that contradict the fact that younger brothers are generally left with nothing and must fend for themselves?

Oh and BTW, last question - the cost to arm a knight yourself is still around £20, correct?


I did a quick estimate calculation earlier in this thread:
'Poor Cavalryman' = £5
'Cavalryman' = £10
'Household Knight' = £20 - £25 (poor charger / courser)
'Player Knight' = £30 - £35 (charger)



I mean, if I have two manors, therefore an income of £20, I'll need one household knight as part of my servitum debitum. Say I have a younger brother, I could make him my household knight, but I'll have to cover the cost of the knighting since it's not part of the four universal aids?


That is correct. Remember that the income from the manors covers the cost to MAINTAIN two knights. It doesn't give you the income to actually knight your brother: you only get that £2 per year, and that is in food and items. To turn it into treasure that doesn't spoil/lower in value, you get only 50%. So you are saving like £1 per year, leaving you with the choices of getting the money out of the peasants by force or get it from looting, raiding, adventuring etc.

In our campaign, we generally assume that the dad's old equipment goes to the 2nd son, since the eldest gets his equipment via Four Universal Aids. Thus, the 'spare' is probably a household knight for the Liege. After all, the liege lord needs to get his household knights from somewhere.



Doesn't that contradict the fact that younger brothers are generally left with nothing and must fend for themselves?


Remember that most knights are household knights. Vassal knights are a minority, and most of them have only one manor. So they are not able to offer positions to their younger brothers.

The usual adage during Middle Ages was "the Heir, the Spare and the Prayer", the 3rd son going to the Church. If there are even more sons than this, then they are probably going to be esquires.

It is actually pretty rare that the younger brothers are left with NOTHING. They usually get something; minimal equipment, some deals and introductions to try to set them up with esquire careers with the Liege or other knights, etc. They are not sent out into the world with a boot to the backside and only the clothes on their backs. :)

Here is an old thread where I was musing about such things:
http://nocturnal-media.com/forum/index.php?topic=1760.msg14060#msg14060

Last question Morien, I swear :)

As part of my servitum debitum (income is £20, two manors), I must provide 2 knights & 6 soldiers/men at arms. Right. I will thus hire a household knight or arm one myself.

However, his £4 yearly standing/income is taken into account into the formulas you gave earlier, or should I make some special calculations for those?

Excuse me if I'm a bit slow, I am indeed ah ah, and last night my 1 year old daughter woke up at 2am so my brain is fried :)

Last question Morien, I swear :)


I would not have you forsworn or restrained from asking more questions, so please don't swear. :P



As part of my servitum debitum (income is £20, two manors), I must provide 2 knights & 6 soldiers/men at arms. Right. I will thus hire a household knight or arm one myself.


Correct.



However, his £4 yearly standing/income is taken into account into the formulas you gave earlier, or should I make some special calculations for those?


Already accounted for. We wished to make it simple for the players who don't want to get stuck in the minutia.

Just grab your 10% (£2) of annual spending allowance, your improved Standard of Living (£5+£2 = £7... you could use that spending allowance to upgrade yourself to a Rich Knight, £9, if you wanted to) and your household knight and 6 foot soldiers and carry on playing!



Excuse me if I'm a bit slow, I am indeed ah ah, and last night my 1 year old daughter woke up at 2am so my brain is fried :)


No worries, and belated congratulations on the successful childbirth roll. :)