From what I could gather from the Solo Scenarios section on p. 199 of the KAP 5e book, the "Vassal Service" scenario should be rolled every year for each knight, representing the mandatory service he owes his lord every year. In the case of vassal knights, should every one of them participate on the "Your Own Land" scenario yearly? Or only if they were particularly focused on managing their manor that year? Also, how do those rules interact with the expanded Winter Phase rules found on the GPC?

Finally, another economic question: of the income a vassal knight earns each year, how much of it is spent, and how much of it is left? In other words: what costs are assumed to be covered by the knight's lifestyle category? Frex, I'm assuming normal horses are covered (since the text explicitly mentions a knight's stable is enough to maintain the 4 horses he starts the game with), while clothing is not (since we're given explicit degradation rules and prices).

Eduardo Penna

It depends. If your adventures are set during their service, no, no vassal service solo. Mine usually are.

Your Own Land is not so much a solo as a means of dealing with the land-hold; I don't treat it as a solo, but as part of winter phase for landholders.

Finally, another economic question: of the income a vassal knight earns each year, how much of it is spent, and how much of it is left? In other words: what costs are assumed to be covered by the knight's lifestyle category? Frex, I'm assuming normal horses are covered (since the text explicitly mentions a knight's stable is enough to maintain the 4 horses he starts the game with), while clothing is not (since we're given explicit degradation rules and prices).

Assuming everything is "average" and no surprises, everything is covered (including clothes at "average" for that lifestyle bracket); there is no extra "cash" to be had.

Until, of course, you are in the Earl+ category, at which point you might have a few Librum kicking around as "spare change" - the higher the rank, the more extra money on hand, of course.

From what I could gather from the Solo Scenarios section on p. 199 of the KAP 5e book, the "Vassal Service" scenario should be
I would say "may be." These are optional scenarios and if people don't like doing it, they do not have to.

rolled every year for each knight, representing the mandatory service he owes his lord every year. In the case of vassal knights, should every one of them participate on the "Your Own Land" scenario yearly? Or only if they were particularly focused on managing their manor that year?
Some people just hate doing any economics. The GM simply tells them what their economic circumstances are each year. "this you are a Rich Knight" or "Average knight" or "Impoverished knight," as is appropriate.

Also, how do those rules interact with the expanded Winter Phase rules found on the GPC?
The GPC section would replace "Your Own Land." And if you have not had sufficient versions of the economic system, be sure to see Book of the Manor for a couple of more. :)

Finally, another economic question: of the income a vassal knight earns each year, how much of it is spent, and how much of it is left?
None.
In other words: what costs are assumed to be covered by the knight's lifestyle category? Frex, I'm assuming normal horses are covered (since the text explicitly mentions a knight's stable is enough to maintain the 4 horses he starts the game with), while clothing is not (since we're given explicit degradation rules and prices).
Repair of clothing is covered. The Economics are only for players who want to take the risks of profit or gain.

Until, of course, you are in the Earl+ category, at which point you might have a few Librum kicking around as "spare change" - the higher the rank, the more extra money on hand, of course.

Officially, an earl has about ?20 per year, to cover all extras for a year.
He still has enough to meet the necessary standards of his office (small tournament, hunts, his men's upkeep, his wife's clothing, etc.)

Some people just hate doing any economics. The GM simply tells them what their economic circumstances are each year. "this you are a Rich Knight" or "Average knight" or "Impoverished knight," as is appropriate.

I'm afraid that's us. Our gaming sessions have limited time (2 hour slots) and so doing book-keeping eats into this too much. I have the Book of the Manor, and would love to have the time to do it properly though. One day maybe...

Greg:

In reply #3 you wrote

Quote
Finally, another economic question: of the income a vassal knight earns each year, how much of it is spent, and how much of it is left?
None.

Does the answer none apply to how much is spent? Or how much is left?
If the first then each player knight would get 6 pounds a year to spend on what he wants, if the second he would get no cash every year. If the second how do player knights get money?

Greg:

In reply #3 you wrote

Quote
Finally, another economic question: of the income a vassal knight earns each year, how much of it is spent, and how much of it is left?
None.

Does the answer none apply to how much is spent? Or how much is left?
If the first then each player knight would get 6 pounds a year to spend on what he wants, if the second he would get no cash every year. If the second how do player knights get money?


My guess is that Greg means that none is left, because hoarding money is not very knightly. I'm allowing my players to save the two extra libra Rich knights get when compared to Average knights, but if they do so they gain no benefit from the Rich lifestyle (so, no bonus to their Horse Survival, Childbirth and Child Survival rolls), and if they save for more than a couple of years I give them a Selfish check each time they do so. They also don't gain the two extra Glory at the end of the year.

As for how players knights get money, I assume that's what adventures and battles are for! Marriage can also give quite a bit of money, if the knight marries well (hell, even a 10 glory, below his station wife can give the knight 6 libra, if the player is lucky).

Eduardo Penna

There where long fruitful discussion about economics in the old WW site.


I go the middle way with this in my campaign. Yes knights don't usually hoard huge ammounts of money and they most definitevely do not start business, however unless a knight is famously Indulgent or Wordly he can, and should, save some ? for future emergency expenses he knows will eventualy come.

These might include:

- Dowries for the unmarried women in the family (remember only the eldest daughter gets the Univeral Aid)

- Ransom piggybanks.

- A fund to knight a family member (again only the eldest son gets the UA)

- Emergency stash to replace armor and horses lost in Jousts (when that tradition comes along)

- An egg's nest of 2? to ensure the knight isn't Poor on years when the crop is bad.

- Etc, etc.

I'd say at the very least a knight can have enough money stashed away to mantain himself for a year (6?) and still be quite knightly. After you never know what can happen. If your manor gets razed how will you support yourself during reconstruction?

Also, an unmarried vassal knight with no special mounts has no drive whatsoever to just burn extra money and live like Rich or Superlative for a year. All his horses get replaced automaticaly and he does not use the Childbirth or Child Survival tables anyway.
Unless of course he is a REAL Glory-hound and wants those extra measly points :).

If you hoard money, it's vulnerable to plundering should your manor be raided.

Also, there's a way to hoard money in a knightly manner: use it for Conspicuous Consumption. I think there were rules for buying non-ephemeral CC goods like golden cups somewhere on the other forum?

Greg:

In reply #3 you wrote

Quote
Finally, another economic question: of the income a vassal knight earns each year, how much of it is spent, and how much of it is left?
None.

Does the answer none apply to how much is spent? Or how much is left?


How much is left. It costs ?6 to live in a knightly lifestyle.



If the first then each player knight would get 6 pounds a year to spend on what he wants, if the second he would get no cash every year. If the second how do player knights get money?


Knights are not about money, they are about stuff.
There are no banks. There is no way to safely "save money" except maybe by burying it in the forest somewhere.
It is certainly possible to buy treasure, like jewelry, that can be cashed out later.

Money is gained through adventure, raids and battles, where you can take knights for ransom.

Officially, an earl has about ?20 per year, to cover all extras for a year.
He still has enough to meet the necessary standards of his office (small tournament, hunts, his men's upkeep, his wife's clothing, etc.)


Wouldn't you want to keep that sum in multiples of 6, so that you can equate it to manors (make it more simple)?

A knight's expenses I believe breal down as follows: He earns about 6L a year.

1. 2L to upkeep his equipment and clothing for himself and a squire
2. 2L to upkeep his wife and family
3. 2L to upkeep his horses

I' m not sure I have this Completely perfect as the book is not right here in front of me, but you can see that all the profit a knight makes 6L per year, goes right back into running his ordinary knightly lifestyle.
It IS possible to not have a squire and save 1L per year. This does not make you a poor knight( because of no squire) it just puts you at a slight disadvantage in a lot of cases.

Of course with the book of the manor there are many ways for you to spend any excess money that you come across. Maybe your wife is not a very good Steward and you hire an average steward for 1L a year, or an excellent one (16+ skill) for 2L per year, etc... Maybe your manor is being raided and needs protection so you use any extra loot to build fortifications, and/or hire a few men at arms to always be there, or maybe you build a small church and the pay 1L per year to support the priest in a fitting matter( and net a LOVE: GOD roll every year as well ;) ). It is a lot of fun.

20L for an Earl is seems like a rough estimate. If it's easier for a GM i'm sure that 18 or 24 would not be too much of a stretch. Certainly not every Earl has the same commoditites or hardships in his territory? :o