I know this has been discussed before, and I've read a few threads about it in these forums, but I don't want to resurrect year-old threads. So here goes:

Lady Adwenn marries Sir M. She has 4 manors, of which 3 are enfeoffed:
Aldertree Manor
Swallowcliff Manor (enfeoffed)
Sedgehill Manor (enfeoffed)
Broadgrove Manor (enfeoffed)

Sir M. has one manor of his one (being a PK):
Idmiston Manor

Sir M. dies and leaves Lady Adwenn with one son (the oldest), and 2 daughters. As I understand, for inheritance purposes, the daughters are out of luck, correct?

A) What becomes Lady Adwenn's Widow's Gift?
B) What is inherited by Sir M's son?
C) If a PK becomes the son's guardian, to whom do the knights in the enfeoffed manors owe allegiance?
D) Is the guardian entitled to any Glory at all for being entrusted the manors (if at all)?

Yep, the daughters are out of luck. The eldest son inherits first.

A) Lady Adwenn gets 1/3rd of the landholdings as her Widow's Gift. Her warden (liege lord) would be in control, and if she remarries, the new husband would be in control. When she dies, those lands return to the heir (her son).
B) Everything, minus 1/3rd which is Lady Adwenn's Widow's Gift while she is alive. Once she dies, see above.
C) To the son, and via him, to the PK in the name of the son.
D) I'd give him the glory for all the manors he controls (so in this case, 2/3rds of everything, unless Lady Adwenn dies, in which case it would be all of them).

Thanks, Morien. Always to the rescue. :)

What 1/3 of the properties would that be? I mean, which of the manors would be her 1/3? And if it's just 1/3 of a manor, does that mean the land is divided, or does she receive any monetary compensation of a roughly equivalent value?

ADDED
Looking at Lady Indeg (in Heiresses Revised http://nocturnal-media.com/forum/index.php?topic=2364.0), I was wondering if she marries to a PK, is the PK entitled to spend the Widow's Gift as he sees fit while married to her?

Thanks, Morien. Always to the rescue. :)


Happy to help. :)



What 1/3 of the properties would that be? I mean, which of the manors would be her 1/3?


Depends on the liege lord and the heir. Generally, I'd imagine it would be as even as possible, but of course if the heir is a son-in-law who doesn't get along with her and is from a powerful family, the widow might get shafted. It actually happened to Princess Eleanor Plantagenet, the daughter of King John and the widow of William Marshal, 2nd Earl of Pembroke (the son of the more famous William Marshal). Her brother, Henry III, was a bit of a limp biscuit and the Marshal family basically defaulted on the dower until they got sued, if I recall correctly.



And if it's just 1/3 of a manor, does that mean the land is divided, or does she receive any monetary compensation of a roughly equivalent value?


It is 1/3rd of a manor and 1/3rd of the obligations, meaning paying 1/3rd of the manor's knight (and other servitium debitum, if you wish to be exact; I probably wouldn't be, since I prefer the widow getting £2 for herself and the children).

In the case of Adwenn, were I the GM, I'd probably rule that her Widow's Portion in this case is her own inherited manor and one of the vassal manors. Sure, that is a bit more than 1/3rd, but keeps things nice and neat.

Although I would have to check, now that I think about it, at what point does the son become the heir... It is possible that Adwenn would actually hold her 4 manors until the son is an adult, and thus get 1/3rd of the PK's manor, too. Any warden of the boy would get only 2/3rds of the PK's manor. I'll get back to this.



ADDED
Looking at Lady Indeg (in Heiresses Revised http://nocturnal-media.com/forum/index.php?topic=2364.0), I was wondering if she marries to a PK, is the PK entitled to spend the Widow's Gift as he sees fit while married to her?


In principle, yes, but note that there is the servitium debitum obligation as well... Indeg would actually only get about £1 income out of that £2 Widow's Portion, since the other £1 would go to pay for her share of that manor's servitium debitum, which is probably pretty low, given that it would be a £6 manor... Ah, I see, Greg mentions in the revision that she didn't get her full 1/3rd from the dead husband's lands, so that explains why she seems to have gotten a mere 1/5th of an average manor.

One thing to keep in mind is that while the husband has the power to command, it is the wife who is actually making sure that everything works. I doubt Indeg is a wallflower who would meekly submit to the husband's orders if she is opposed, and since she is free to choose her own husband, I doubt she would go for a tyrannical bully. :)

I'll want to keep things simple as I don't want to get bogged down in economics and inheritance issues with my players. However, in Lady Indeg's case, I'm still not clear on where all her manors come from. Assuming she has no children, as her write-up seems to imply, and she has only £2 from her Widow's Gift, what are the remaining manors: Annas, Straightford, etc.?

In the case of Lady Adwenn, let me explain the situation: She married a PK with 1 manor (long story, but he saved Uther's life and there were some politics and intrigue involved). The PK died with a minor son.

1) Is the 1/3 of her share taken from ALL the holdings (hers + the PK) or just from the PK's?
2) Isn't she getting the shaft, either way, I mean, either she gets 1/3 of the PK's holdings (£2 for life) or from all holdings (2 manors), less than what she started with, which were the 4 manors.
3) And this relates to Lady Indeg above: if the widow only gets 1/3 of the holdings, where did all Lady Indeg's manors come from (unless she married twice with knights holding a considerable numbers of manors).

I'll want to keep things simple as I don't want to get bogged down in economics and inheritance issues with my players. However, in Lady Indeg's case, I'm still not clear on where all her manors come from. Assuming she has no children, as her write-up seems to imply, and she has only £2 from her Widow's Gift, what are the remaining manors: Annas, Straightford, etc.?


I think I see your confusion. Here is an explanation:

- Lady Indeg is an heiress. Her lands are the two manors and two hamlets listed.
- She has been married two times already so she is allowed to say no to any third husband she doesn't like (she still needs permission to marry a third husband of her choosing, KAP 5.1 p. 39). Also, since she is a double widow, she rules over the lands herself, without a custodian, until she marries.
- Her Widow's Gift/Portion/Holdings is from the first marriage, £2. (I'd rule that £2 is after she pays for the 1/3rd share of a knight back to the heir of her first husband, so it is the annual income to be spent as her custodian wills.) Her second marriage resulted in no Widow's Gift, due to the skillful legal maneuvering of her ex-in-laws, as mentioned in her write up.
- Since she has no children from those two marriages, she is still the heiress. However, due to her age, she is very unlikely to get any children, so at her death, her manors will return to the liege lord to do what he wills. (Note: the ex-husband/widower MIGHT be allowed to keep them for life after her death, and the liege lord might even grant them to the widower if the widower is deserving.)



In the case of Lady Adwenn, let me explain the situation: She married a PK with 1 manor (long story, but he saved Uther's life and there were some politics and intrigue involved). The PK died with a minor son.


I am assuming that the son is of Lady Adwenn, not from the PK's previous marriage? A stepson has no claim whatsoever to Lady Adwenn's inheritance. If the son is actually a stepson and the daughters are Lady Adwenn's own, then the situation gets more complicated, as the daughters will split their MOTHER's inheritance, assuming no sons are born in subsequent marriages.



1) Is the 1/3 of her share taken from ALL the holdings (hers + the PK) or just from the PK's?
2) Isn't she getting the shaft, either way, I mean, either she gets 1/3 of the PK's holdings (£2 for life) or from all holdings (2 manors), less than what she started with, which were the 4 manors.


Note that in all cases, it is actually not Lady Adwenn who exercises control over the manors/Widow's Gift, but her custodian (usually her liege lord) in her behalf. The custodian collects the income and supports the lady and any children, usually spending any excess income himself. Only double widows (like Lady Indeg) are independent.

You know what, I am increasingly starting to think that the fairest way would be for Lady Adwenn to keep her own manors + 1/3rd of the Husband's lands as the Widow's Gift, both until she dies. The son would inherit her manors (in his own right) only at her death, although in practice, I would imagine that if she is still a widow, her son would become her custodian and take over her manors once he is of age. If there is a separate custodian for the son, that custodian would only rule over 2/3rds of the Husband's manor, until the son is of age.

I think the above tracks well enough the case of Eleanor of Aquitaine, who stayed as the titular Duchess of Aquitaine throughout her life, but during her lifetime, the actual Dukes were:
Louis VII by the right of his wife, Eleanor
Henry II by the right of his wife, Eleanor
Richard I Lionheart by the right of his mother, Eleanor
John I by the right of his mother, Eleanor, until Eleanor's death in 1204.

Richard I became the Duke of Aquitaine in 1172, with Henry II's and Eleanor's approval. So clearly, the son could inherit while the mother and even the father were still alive. But it didn't happen automatically. I am not sure what the situation is if the heiress has remarried and the husband is still alive. I think the husband's rights would trump over the son's, while the mother is still alive, and I think Greg mentioned way back when a case of the husband retaining the lands for life, but I forget if there were any surviving heirs. Needless to say, the actual medieval inheritance law is even much more complicated than what has been discussed here! :)

So, this is how I would rule it in our campaign:
1. If the heiress is unmarried and her son is not of age: the custodian takes care of it all.
2. If the heiress is unmarried and her son is of age: the son becomes the custodian and assumes control of the inheritance by the right of his mother.
3. If the heiress is married, and her son is not of age: the husband becomes the custodian and assumes control of the inheritance (of the heiress) by the right of his wife.
4. If the heiress is married and her son is of age: the husband retains the control of the inheritance by the right of his wife, unless other agreements are made.
5. If the heiress dies but was married, and her son (from another, previous marriage) is of age: the son inherits, since the widower husband no longer has a wife to give him the right to the inheritance.
6. If the heiress dies, leaving behind a widower but no heirs: the husband retains the inheritance of his deceased wife until he dies, subject to liege lord's approval of course.

If the heirs are daughters, the inheritance will eventually be split between them, when the mother dies, not before. The daughters' husbands take control of the lands by the right of their wives.



3) And this relates to Lady Indeg above: if the widow only gets 1/3 of the holdings, where did all Lady Indeg's manors come from (unless she married twice with knights holding a considerable numbers of manors).


Answer in the beginning.