Maybe folks here can help me unravel a question of marriage, complicated by issues of consanguinity, illegitimacy and inheritance, which looms in my campaign...

For various reasons, it is desired that two families form an marriage alliance.

The heir of one family is Helias. He is the son of Lady Emma, grandson of Lord Walter, and great-grandson of Lord Hugh, all legitimate and clear.

The eldest daughter of the other is Ides. She is officially the daughter of Sir Goddard. Goddard is the bastard Lord Walter's brother Ilbert, who is the son of Lord Hugh. In fact, it is a more-or-less open secret that Ides is actually the illegitimate outcome of a Beltane dalliance between her mother and another knight. However, Goddard's liege lord acknowledges Ides as the sole heiress of Sir Goddard's manor (Sir Goddard being deceased).

I'm thinking that, because of the official consanguinity between them, Ides and Helias may not marry. To question that consanguinity would be to raise the issue of Ides's illegitimacy and call her inheritance into question... right?

However, Ides has a half-sister, Elsbeth. She is the legitimate child of her mother's second marriage to a man who has no blood ties to Helias. Therefore, I don't think there are any issues of consanguinity here. The only issue is that Elsbeth is 5 years younger and so will not be of age to be married until that much later.

Is my thinking correct or have I overlooked or misunderstood anything? Thanks in advance for the input.

Well, it depends if you are going full medieval or if you are following the Roman law.

Roman law, first cousins are no-no, meaning that in your example, Helias and Ides can marry, since they are second cousins.

Medieval canon law... you count back up to seventh ancestor, so Helias and Ides are out of luck. However, so is Elspeth, since in medieval canon law, marriage between two people means they gain each other's 'affinities'. So Elspeth's mother counts as Lady Emma's cousin, hence making Elspeth Helias' second cousin by (previous) marriage, too.

But feel free to make up your own choice:
1) Roman law: Helias and Ides are OK.
2) Medieval canon law, but only blood relatives count: Helias and Elspeth are OK.
3) Medieval canon law, marriage counts too: Helias should look outside 'family'.

It actually gets even more fun... Medieval canon law also counted 'carnal relations' as causing affinity...

Given how intermarried the nobility was, it makes one wonder how they got any alliances made.

Given how intermarried the nobility was, it makes one wonder how they got any alliances made.


Of course, if you supplied the pope with enough money or favours, he could grant an exception (dispensation) or find a reason why you could wed.

Given how intermarried the nobility was, it makes one wonder how they got any alliances made.


Of course, if you supplied the pope with enough money or favours, he could grant an exception (dispensation) or find a reason why you could wed.


Now that's a question... I'm assuming you have to make some kind of at least pro forma argument to justify a dispensation? The obvious one would be that Ides is not really Goddard's son, but that calls into question her inheritance rights. However, it is a publicly acknowledged fact that Goddard was a bastard. If his parentage is called into question it could weaken the claim of consanguinity without effecting Ides's inheritance (Goddard held his manor through marriage, as a reward for heroic service to his liege).

If his parentage is called into question it could weaken the claim of consanguinity without effecting Ides's inheritance (Goddard held his manor through marriage, as a reward for heroic service to his liege).


If you are being strict, there would have to be witnesses willing to swear that Sir Ilbert never had a dalliance with Goddard's mother. And that might be a rather tall order, given that Goddard was apparently subsequently sponsored to knighthood by the family and 'generally accepted' to be Ilbert's bastard. After all, carnal relations count for affinity, so by sleeping with Goddard's mom, Ilbert established the affinity link from Goddard to himself, too.

My own mantra is: "The Needs of the Story Outweigh the Inconvenient Historical Details." :P The Roman law gives you all the wiggle room that you need. Especially as I don't seem to recall the pope doing much at all during Le Morte D'Arthur... So what would you want to happen, as the GM? Insurmountable problem? Have really strict rules. A challenge but not an impossible one? Relax the carnal relations causing affinity ruling. Now you will just have to do what you suggested and find enough doubt of Goddard's parentage that that Ides is no longer related. Given that Goddard's mom was probably a commoner, it shouldn't be too difficult to cast doubt on that. I'd imagine a local bishop should be high enough in that case to review the evidence and say things are a-OK for the young couple, especially if the couple is demonstrably pious (donations to the church are always welcome).

My own mantra is: "The Needs of the Story Outweigh the Inconvenient Historical Details." :P The Roman law gives you all the wiggle room that you need. Especially as I don't seem to recall the pope doing much at all during Le Morte D'Arthur... So what would you want to happen, as the GM? Insurmountable problem? Have really strict rules. A challenge but not an impossible one? Relax the carnal relations causing affinity ruling. Now you will just have to do what you suggested and find enough doubt of Goddard's parentage that that Ides is no longer related. Given that Goddard's mom was probably a commoner, it shouldn't be too difficult to cast doubt on that. I'd imagine a local bishop should be high enough in that case to review the evidence and say things are a-OK for the young couple, especially if the couple is demonstrably pious (donations to the church are always welcome).


I like and agree with your mantra. I like having just enough historical detail to keep the tone of the setting. Meanwhile, since my players mostly favor courtiers and ladies over traditional knights, having a problem they can solve with a little intrigue and backroom dealing is just their style.

Thanks!

I agree with Morien here. It is your story. You are allowed to change the rules to fit the campaign style you desire with regards to history. After all, is Arthur historical? Were there actual pieces of the cross? One campaign may focus on the Pelagian heresy while the next just skips the entire thing.
Do your knights care about the difference between British Christianity and Catholic Christianity?

The point here is have fun. If you need to blur the lines of consanguinity, then do so. How many indulgences would it take to let the church rule in your favor?

How many indulgences would it take to let the church rule in your favor?


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Given how intermarried the nobility was, it makes one wonder how they got any alliances made.


Of course, if you supplied the pope with enough money or favours, he could grant an exception (dispensation) or find a reason why you could wed.


Unless he is British Christian
then just go to one of the abbot-bishops
They would be much cheaper

Actually the Roman Christian bishop is the liege lord of Ides's family (both her nominal father and her step-father). Ides's mother (also deceased) was British Christian, but her step-father is at least nominally Roman Christian (for the sake of his liege). In part the marriage is an alliance between the bishop-baron's estate and Helias's family.

Actually the Roman Christian bishop is the liege lord of Ides's family (both her nominal father and her step-father). Ides's mother (also deceased) was British Christian, but her step-father is at least nominally Roman Christian (for the sake of his liege). In part the marriage is an alliance between the bishop-baron's estate and Helias's family.

Well, I hope the bishop likes traveling to Rome then!

Actually the Roman Christian bishop is the liege lord of Ides's family (both her nominal father and her step-father). Ides's mother (also deceased) was British Christian, but her step-father is at least nominally Roman Christian (for the sake of his liege). In part the marriage is an alliance between the bishop-baron's estate and Helias's family.

Well, I hope the bishop likes traveling to Rome then!


Wouldn't be the first time he's gone there. (The trouble I get myself in by establishing things early in the game and then having scenarios come up which don't really mesh well with them. Poor planning on my part.)

Unless the cleric involved in the marriage are martinets, I doubt they'd mind overlooking consanguinity especially if it's in a bishop's political interest. This might result in stories revolving around inheritance disputes for descendents, with the legal point of contention being whether that marriage was actually valid or not.