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View Full Version : So what ever DID happen to all that technology?



Mr.47
08-19-2015, 08:14 AM
Let me see if I have the timeline right:
1. Gael attacks Cymric, Cymric allies Saxon
2. Saxon defeats Gael, Cymric defeats Saxon
3. Arthur creates utopia, Arthur creates Mordred
4. Mordred destroys Utopia, Arthur destroys Mordred
5. Saxon inherits the earth?

At the end of the GPC it seems as if Britian had advanced culturally to the cusp of the early renaissance, with full plate armor, stone castles, and oh yeah guns. And yet it seems to imply that after Camlann, the dark ages just kind of resume as if the past eighty years never happened.

I mean I know why the court of arthur was portrayed the way it was. Medieval writers didn't really have a concept of history in terms of 'the march of progress'. The world was always more or less the same as it was to them. A good example of this that many of you will be familiar with is the morgan bible, in which characters of the old testament are illustrated as armored knights contemporary to the era in which it was written. This is also why in lord of the rings, the Middle Earth of Isildur is nigh Identical to the Middle Earth of Aragorn and Frodo, despite living millennia apart. It was a deliberate effort on the part of tolkien to emulate medieval literature.

Consequently, the Arthur and Guinevere of Robert Wace and Chretien de Troyes bear a strong resemblance to Henry II (whose reign was preceded by the 'anarchy') and Eleanor of Aquitaine (who happened to be Wace's patron and the mother of Chretien's). Thomas Mallory wrote about camlann spelling the death of knighthood and the rise of dishonorable warfare in arthurian britian, because that was exactly what was happening during his lifetime (having died about midway through the war of the roses). In fact the GPC is pretty much just a microcosm of medieval English history, four hundred years from hastings to bosworth field, shrunk down into a century from the landing of ambrosius to camlann.

But my rambling aside, what if any is the in universe explanation for what happened to all the honkin huge stone castles, and why absolutely no one in the entirety of europe ever bothered to write down the recipe for gunpowder? I can understand Metallurgy and such being a taught art and nt a written one, and so when all the smiths of camelot died their advanced weapons and armor went with them, but surely something as revolutionary as explosives would be something kept for posterity by alchemist and the like, especially since the arquebusiers at camlann were italian mercenaries, implying that it's use was pretty wide spread. And you'd think even crumbling stone castles would leave ruins behind.

Because right now I'm assuming King Constantine eventually went all 'Mad King Aerys', bought every last gram of black powder in the world and rigged every fortification in Logres to blow in case the Saxons started winning, which they did.

Sir Brad
08-19-2015, 09:25 AM
Pre-Arthur Post-Roman-Era Briton was in decline Cavil order was braking down, most of the grate minds (or at least those with proper educations) left with the Legions or where put to the Sword when they wouldn't play ball with the rising warlords, the Know-how was dieing (or retreating to the monasteries), then came Arthur, Civial Order was slowly reestablished and with that money was not bean eaten up by pointless wars (or at least fewer of them), Arthur offered sanctuary to the Gauls who brought with them the Science and Culture that had not retreated all the way to besieged Rome, Money and Ideas came together and new things where tried. Arthur went to Rome and took thinkers with him who studied as well as fought more grate minds returned with him and things got better.

After Arthur the old factions made their plays, the Old Kingdoms tried to rise again, the Saxons where set free, the Gauls came to terms with the Franks and returned home, with the rise of a new Anarchy the Romans once again fled then Briton Burned and along with it all the advances of the Arthurian era. Normandy and Brittany knowledge retained some of what Arthur had built up and would carry it home in 1066 and it wouldn't be till the 1200's that the French influence was widely accepted and most of the developments time of Arthur where found again.

Morien
08-19-2015, 11:38 AM
In fact the GPC is pretty much just a microcosm of medieval English history, four hundred years from hastings to bosworth field, shrunk down into a century from the landing of ambrosius to camlann.


Yep, deliberately so. :)

Lets face it, if we are going to play the Knights of the Round Table, we want to play KNIGHTS. Shining armor desirable! From purely campaign perspective, accelerating the equipment creep is a good idea; each generation feels more distinct, and the PKs have better armor and horses to aspire to. (Especially armor, the better horses are too expensive and die too easily for a mere 1-manor knight to aspire to...).



But my rambling aside, what if any is the in universe explanation for what happened to all the honkin huge stone castles, and why absolutely no one in the entirety of europe ever bothered to write down the recipe for gunpowder? I can understand Metallurgy and such being a taught art and nt a written one, and so when all the smiths of camelot died their advanced weapons and armor went with them, but surely something as revolutionary as explosives would be something kept for posterity by alchemist and the like, especially since the arquebusiers at camlann were italian mercenaries, implying that it's use was pretty wide spread.


First of all, this is a game with miracles, magic, monsters and faeries. So logic doesn't always apply. :)

Secondly, GPC is supposed to end soon after Camlann, so whatever the GM decides to do afterwards, feel free.

Thirdly, you can explain anything away if you really want to. Even assuming that you don't want to just say: 'gunpowder doesn't happen in my campaign', you could easily go with the Yellow Priest -route, and have all the gunpowder production be in the hands of the Chinese alchemists. Those alchemists die in accidents/assassinations/diseases/battles/old ages, and there is no one to continue making gunpowder.

Oh, by the way, those Italian mercenaries annoy me a lot, too. What I would do is nix them altogether, since historically, in 535-554, Italy was ravaged by the Gothic Wars. They were in no shape to send mercenaries abroad whatsoever, nor were they the rich Italian mercantile city states that dominated the Mediterranean trade from High Middle Ages until the end of it.

So what I would do is have Arthur kick the Ostrogoth rulers of Italy (and their Roman puppet, senator-to-emperor Lucius), and when he returns to Britain, Justinian takes advantage of the Ostrogoth weakness and confusion to launch his own invasion in 535. This allows the normal history to continue outside Britain. Simply remove all mentions of Italian Mercenaries, and of course, the place to get the Plate Armor is in Camelot, not in Milan and certainly not Germany, which is still a barbarian wasteland at this time. Also, if you limit the cannon and gunpowder to Cornwall with its Yellow Priest, it is much easier to get rid of those afterwards, too.



And you'd think even crumbling stone castles would leave ruins behind.


Sure, why not? Plenty of ruins left over from even Roman era. Remember that people tend to scavenge the ruins for building materials. For example, the Old Sarum is pretty much stripped bare nowadays. Add some fires and deliberate destruction, and it is easy to imagine that most of the castles would have been at best ruins by the time the Normans arrive. Assuming you wished to even think that far.

womble
08-19-2015, 07:31 PM
Let me see if I have the timeline right:
1. Gael attacks Cymric, Cymric allies Saxon
2. Saxon defeats Gael, Cymric defeats Saxon
3. Arthur creates utopia, Arthur creates Mordred
4. Mordred destroys Utopia, Arthur destroys Mordred
5. Saxon inherits the earth?


Are you trying to come up with the KAP version of "Scissors, Paper, Stone, Lizard, Spock"?

;)

Mr.47
08-19-2015, 08:37 PM
Let me see if I have the timeline right:
1. Gael attacks Cymric, Cymric allies Saxon
2. Saxon defeats Gael, Cymric defeats Saxon
3. Arthur creates utopia, Arthur creates Mordred
4. Mordred destroys Utopia, Arthur destroys Mordred
5. Saxon inherits the earth?


Are you trying to come up with the KAP version of "Scissors, Paper, Stone, Lizard, Spock"?

;)


Actually I was referencing a line from Jurassic Park:

"God creates Dinosaurs
God destroys Dinosaurs
God creates Man
Man destroys God
Man creates Dinosaurs"

"Dinosaurs eat Man
Woman inherits the Earth"

Greg Stafford
08-20-2015, 02:02 AM
Let me see if I have the timeline right:
1. Gael attacks Cymric, Cymric allies Saxon
2. Saxon defeats Gael, Cymric defeats Saxon
3. Arthur creates utopia, Arthur creates Mordred
4. Mordred destroys Utopia, Arthur destroys Mordred
5. Saxon inherits the earth?

At the end of the GPC it seems as if Britian had advanced culturally to the cusp of the early renaissance, with full plate armor, stone castles, and oh yeah guns. And yet it seems to imply that after Camlann, the dark ages just kind of resume as if the past eighty years never happened.

Exactly correct
You see:
1. The campaign is over, NOTHING goes on afterwards
2. This is all made up stuff.


I mean I know why the court of arthur was portrayed the way it was. Medieval writers didn't really have a concept of history in terms of 'the march of progress'. The world was always more or less the same as it was to them. A good example of this that many of you will be familiar with is the morgan bible, in which characters of the old testament are illustrated as armored knights contemporary to the era in which it was written. This is also why in lord of the rings, the Middle Earth of Isildur is nigh Identical to the Middle Earth of Aragorn and Frodo, despite living millennia apart. It was a deliberate effort on the part of tolkien to emulate medieval literature.

Consequently, the Arthur and Guinevere of Robert Wace and Chretien de Troyes bear a strong resemblance to Henry II (whose reign was preceded by the 'anarchy') and Eleanor of Aquitaine (who happened to be Wace's patron and the mother of Chretien's). Thomas Mallory wrote about camlann spelling the death of knighthood and the rise of dishonorable warfare in arthurian britian, because that was exactly what was happening during his lifetime (having died about midway through the war of the roses). In fact the GPC is pretty much just a microcosm of medieval English history, four hundred years from hastings to bosworth field, shrunk down into a century from the landing of ambrosius to camlann.

Yes. In fact, the periods when Arthurian literature was in vogue


But my rambling aside, what if any is the in universe explanation for what happened to all the honkin huge stone castles, and why absolutely no one in the entirety of europe ever bothered to write down the recipe for gunpowder?

There is none, nor the need for one
This doesn't pretend to be real history anywhere
there is nothing that happens after the end of the campaign when all the PKs are dead


I can understand Metallurgy and such being a taught art and not a written one, and so when all the smiths of camelot died their advanced weapons and armor went with them, but surely something as revolutionary as explosives would be something kept for posterity by alchemist and the like, especially since the arquebusiers at camlann were italian mercenaries, implying that it's use was pretty wide spread. And you'd think even crumbling stone castles would leave ruins behind.

Because right now I'm assuming King Constantine eventually went all 'Mad King Aerys', bought every last gram of black powder in the world and rigged every fortification in Logres to blow in case the Saxons started winning, which they did.

You can choose to do whatever you want after everyone is dead
because
The campaign ENDS shortly after Camlann