Hey everyone,

We are in year 499 of the GPC, and I have just recently won the hand of the lady Jenna, gaining Upavon and all of it's holdings (whoo!)

Can anyone point me to a map or description of the city itself? I'm trying to wrap my head around the major differences between it and a regular holding (other than the fact that it's bigger and worth more money.) What is it's relative size compared to Sarum? Is it comparable to Warminster, Tilshead, and Wilton? (I don't know much about those either.)What kind of services does it provide that are different from smaller holdings, Ect?

For the record, I must state that my GM is great, and has already told me he would provide me with a map when he could find one (we play a play-by-post game on http://www.myth-weavers.com/forumdisplay.php?f=16544 (http://www.myth-weavers.com/forumdisplay.php?f=16544).) I'm just a terribly antsy individual whose curiosity is boiling over. :)

Any help would be greatly appreciated, thanks!

We are in year 499 of the GPC, and I have just recently won the hand of the lady Jenna, gaining Upavon and all of it's holdings (whoo!)

Congratulations to your character


Can anyone point me to a map or description of the city itself?

I am afraid that, officially, city is a huge misnomer for this wonderful site


I'm trying to wrap my head around the major differences between it and a regular holding (other than the fact that it's bigger and worth more money.) What is it's relative size compared to Sarum?

Tiny
Upriver is a town
A few hundred people, I believe


Is it comparable to Warminster, Tilshead, and Wilton?

No
Wereside, Streamvale(?), and Floodiver are all major trading market towns


(I don't know much about those either.)What kind of services does it provide that are different from smaller holdings, Ect?

The market towns bring in and sell goods from outside of the county, though not much from other countries


For the record, I must state that my GM is great, and has already told me he would provide me with a map when he could find one (we play a play-by-post game on http://www.myth-weavers.com/forumdisplay.php?f=16544 (http://www.myth-weavers.com/forumdisplay.php?f=16544).) I'm just a terribly antsy individual whose curiosity is boiling over. :)

A map

Thanks for the timely response Greg, and the congratulations! Although, the GM is playing her as a very strong and willful NPC, so it may prove to be a double-edged sword. LOL.

As far as the map goes, I'm not seeing one, or any link to one. Am I missing something?

Lucky you, Ive got a new knight who has no income and must support himself by taking treasure and selling Bandits in to Serfdom, he can keep himself for a few years or ransom himself a couple of times, but has nothing to keep himself by but reputations for Luck, Bravery, Generosity and loyalty to his fathers lords house where he is a guest not a retainer.

As far as the map goes, I'm not seeing one, or any link to one. Am I missing something?

No
I have none

Ah, sorry, I guess I misread your answer. At any rate, the facts you gave give me a pretty good idea of what I'm looking at, so thanks again.

Because you asked at the right time
and I am taking a break, being at the 85% done stage of this project
Here is a chapter from Book of Salisbury
which includes the hamlet of Upriver, or Upavon as some would say
Perhaps it will give your GM an idea on adjusting Jenna's dowry
and some cues for future scenarios

And perhaps some delight and appetite-whetting for everyone to enjoy

attached

part 3

Craiger's GM thanks you kindly.

BTW, as a rule of thumb, I'm treating most "cities" (as show on Thijs' manor of Salisbury map (https://gspendragon.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/salisbury_manor_krijger1.jpg)) as the equivalent of a triple holding. Why? Because that's the icon on the map, and it seemed like a good compromise. :) 1/3 of the income is based on Stewardship, and the other 2/3 on Industry (for lack of a better skill).

This assumes that this is only the knight's portion of the incomes of the town. There are likely lots more librum floating around the city in private hands.

PS -- http://www.gatehouse-gazetteer.info/English%20sites/4216.html
and
https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/413500/155000/12/100367

Craiger's GM thanks you kindly.

BTW, as a rule of thumb, I'm treating most "cities" (as show on Thijs' manor of Salisbury map (https://gspendragon.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/salisbury_manor_krijger1.jpg)) as the equivalent of a triple holding.

Well, most of those are not even close to manors
That map is one of the reasons I made BoSalisbury


Why? Because that's the icon on the map, and it seemed like a good compromise. :) 1/3 of the income is based on Stewardship, and the other 2/3 on Industry (for lack of a better skill).

This assumes that this is only the knight's portion of the incomes of the town. There are likely lots more librum floating around the city in private hands.

Well, my method of calculating income is based on a percentage the render recorded in Doomsday Book


PS -- http://www.gatehouse-gazetteer.info/English%20sites/4216.html
and
https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/413500/155000/12/100367

Nice sources
My maps are based on the earliest Ordnance Maps minus the stuff after Doomsday

This is not criticism
I admire your creativity
Keep that up!

A pet peeve of mine....

Legionaire - A member of the Foreign Legion of France.

Legionary - (Latin: legionarius, pl. legionarii) was a professional heavy infantryman of the Roman army.

Sorry....

Do you want proofreading corrections for those docs, Greg?

Craiger's GM thanks you kindly.


Hello Pyske. :) This guy is an great GM. He took over shortly after the original one backed out and has been doing an awesome job ever since. It's been an interesting and exciting story thus far.



Because you asked at the right time
and I am taking a break, being at the 85% done stage of this project
Here is a chapter from Book of Salisbury
which includes the hamlet of Upriver, or Upavon as some would say
Perhaps it will give your GM an idea on adjusting Jenna's dowry
and some cues for future scenarios

And perhaps some delight and appetite-whetting for everyone to enjoy


Hooray for timing!

This all looks really cool. I'm excited to hear you're 85% done. Can't wait to see the rest of it!

They have not really reached that stage yet.
I've not even spellchecked them
I've released these pretty early!
I am looking for content corrections and omissions right now
Thank you!
-g



Do you want proofreading corrections for those docs, Greg?

I am looking for content corrections and omissions right now



Do you want proofreading corrections for those docs, Greg?



So, in case you haven't gotten to another iteration of Swans yet... working from the pdf you linked in reply #3 of http://nocturnal-media.com/forum/index.php?topic=2902.0, and the map of the hundreds held by Roderick you linked in the same thread:

Differences between the Salisbury Hundreds map and other sources

The Manor of Ebble is listed in the Chater in BotW as being Roderick's. The map of Salisbury's Hundreds says it's held by another knight (Charter authoritative – just consolidated here for reference).
The Hundreds map has “Fountain” marked as the Moot-place for Swans; the pdf from BoS says it's Swans Tump.



Differences between text and table in pdf

The table puts the Moot for the Hundred in Restwell Manor, but the text says it's "...in the [land|manor|parcel|estate] held by Abbot of St Peters..." The map in the pdf agrees with the text and disagrees with both the map of all the Hundreds and the table.

In the 1st para of the text it says: "Swans Hundred is held by the Baron of the Castle of Thornbush. He has granted some of it to his vassals. Count Salisbury holds a manor there too." But there is no entry for any Manor held by Rodders in the table (this is probably the source of my confusion in another thread). Though later, the text says that Restwell Manor is held by Roderick as a vassal to Thornbush, but the table says this Manor is held by Sir Terfel. Perhaps this is a limitation of the table, as Terfel might be a vassal of Roderick, so that might be worth clarifying in the text.

In the same first para, it says: "In fact, many lords hold portions of it." Is that intended, when Marche is the only Baron other than the Hundred Lord to hold land (I'm discounting Rhiannon's Field) in this particular Hundred? It sorta looks like it might be a holdover from a "save as..." Unless you're counting Salisbury's vassal manor as one of those, and even then, "many" seems superfluous, since only Marche hasn't been mentioned in the text by then.


Differences between map and table in pdf

Allanstown is marked as a Hamlet but not mentioned in the table.

The Village of Oldtown Manor is not marked on the map.

Cottagetown (Oldtown Manor) is marked as a Village on the map, but as a Hamlet in the table.

The Cluster of Milk Hill is marked on the map in the Stonetown portion of Restwell Manor but not included in the table.

The Gallows lies on the map in the Upriver portion of the Woodtown Manor, but is included in the table as being in Newtown North. Of course this may be intentional.


Inconsistencies in the map

There is a border between Beechtrees and the contiguous territory of the Newtown North Manor; is that necessary?

There is a border between Hyde and the other villages of Oldtown Manor; given the recent legal ruling, this makes more sense than the border splitting up Newtown.

Several manors consist of noncontiguous areas (Woodtown, Oldtown, [Allanstown], Restwell). Is it worth noting those in the text descriptions so readers don't have to scour the map for the separated portions? I guess arrows like the one used for Allantown from “seat” to “separated part” would be a bit busy on the map. It might even suffice (indeed might already be there :) ) to have a reminder at the beginning of the Hundreds details section that Manors can be scattered piecemeal across a Hundred.

The map key doesn't include any notation for roads and borders. I particularly notice this because the brown (thick, ?main/Royal?) roads are difficult for me to distinguish from grey borders of the same width and saturation, with my deficient colour vision. To add to my confusion, I think lesser roads are marked in thin lines of the same colour as the borders; would it be possible to make all the roads the same colour, with their significance denoted by weight of line? Having an entry in the key would make realising that there are different colours being used easier for the poor-colour-vision demographic.

The map key has no “star” entry used for the Gallows, yet it has entries for many symbols not used on that particular map.


I hope this is helpful feedback. BoS looks like a very useful resource for Salisburian shenanigans; I can't wait... :)

So, in case you haven't gotten to another iteration of Swans yet...

Please contact me off forum