Ding dong, the King is dead!

Our group are into the Anarchy phase now, and the loyal band of knights are looking to consolidate the holdings of Salisbury. Many manors in Salisbury are held by Lords from other counties, who won't be able to protect them (or draw on their income) during the Interregnum. The Saxons are not opposed by a united Logres any more. So we'll be wanting to make... arrangements to bring those outliers under Dowager Countess Ellen's wing for the duration (or longer, God willing) so that their resources are not squandered by venal stewards...

Is there a resource which has a list, or even a count, of the non-Salisbury-held manors (and other assets, though those are less numerous and easier to glean from other resources) in Salisbury County?

Is there a resource which has a list, or even a count, of the non-Salisbury-held manors (and other assets, though those are less numerous and easier to glean from other resources) in Salisbury County?

Well, that is the Book of Salisbury, currently at about 170 pages of text
Just for the Uther Period
But here are a few things in the works for Anarchy
if you wish:
"things" come out of the woods and take the western hundreds away from humankind
The hundred of Wereside, which has the license to collect iron from all of Salisbury (bog iron), asks the countess for help in defending his land (whose forges and smithies are really, really important to repair/replace armor and weapons
The attachment shows which hundreds are outliers in the county
Another task is to visit all of the moot sites to assure that the peasants will support the countess
and also to convince the peasants (even of other lords) to support the countess
Levcomagus snatches at least one hundred
when the countess fights back the Duke of Silchester backs his own man and attacks Salisbury
and there are factions even within the county, some of whom build their own castles (protection against the Saxons, they will say) and also resist rule from the countess (she's just a woman, and not even from Salisbury!)
Eventually I will have all this in print, but tht ought to give the GMs some fodder to cause trouble

and you thought the Saxons were the only problem!
Oh yea, remember that all the count's outliers lose communication with the countess too...

Thanks Greg.

If a Hundred is held by another Baron (and his vassals), is the Swan Hundred draft you linked in the Upavon thread a few days ago typical in that one or two manors remain Robert's "by right"? Is it also the case that even in Hundreds which would, if succession had been uninterrupted and of a strong King, have gone to Robert, that there are individual manors granted to other Barons/Warlords? And in what sort of proportion?

Thanks Greg.

If a Hundred is held by another Baron (and his vassals), is the Swan Hundred draft you linked in the Upavon thread a few days ago typical in that one or two manors remain Robert's "by right"?

First, I am little confused.
When I look at the posting (now with map at http://gspendragon.com/swans_hundred.pdf) I do not see any holdings held by Sir Roderick
Was the previous post different?
But to answer your question,
no
it is not typical that a manor or a hamlet or whatever would be held by Baron Roderick.


Is it also the case that even in Hundreds which would, if succession had been uninterrupted and of a strong King, have gone to Robert, that there are individual manors granted to other Barons/Warlords? And in what sort of proportion?

Yes, it is likely that a hundred held by a baron would have sections extracted and held by other lords
There is no particular proportion or order to it at all
Historically this was introduced into England by William I
He feared that if his vassals held solid blocks of territory their would consolidate them in the same way that the French barons had done, and have a significant power base if they rebelled
The way it is, about half of a baron's holdings would be snatched up by others if he rebelled
And it was a good plan, considering that even his own brother rebelled

Thanks Greg.

If a Hundred is held by another Baron (and his vassals), is the Swan Hundred draft you linked in the Upavon thread a few days ago typical in that one or two manors remain Robert's "by right"?

First, I am little confused.
When I look at the posting (now with map at http://gspendragon.com/swans_hundred.pdf) I do not see any holdings held by Sir Roderick
Was the previous post different?

Erm, no. I r numpty. 'Pologies for the confusion.


But to answer your question,
no
it is not typical that a manor or a hamlet or whatever would be held by Baron Roderick.

Thanks




Is it also the case that even in Hundreds which would, if succession had been uninterrupted and of a strong King, have gone to Robert, that there are individual manors granted to other Barons/Warlords? And in what sort of proportion?

Yes, it is likely that a hundred held by a baron would have sections extracted and held by other lords
There is no particular proportion or order to it at all
Historically this was introduced into England by William I
He feared that if his vassals held solid blocks of territory their would consolidate them in the same way that the French barons had done, and have a significant power base if they rebelled
The way it is, about half of a baron's holdings would be snatched up by others if he rebelled
And it was a good plan, considering that even his own brother rebelled

Okay, thanks. So any given Hundred will usually have "some" manors held by Lords other than the one who's got the majority holdings. In the case of Swans H., it's held for the most part (4 of 6 manors) by the Hundred Lord, but two nice manors are held by vassals of Duke Marche. All the other Salisbury Hundreds, even those that aren't part of Roderick's holdings would, similarly, have one or more minority holdings, potentially held by more than one Baron other than the Hundred Lord.

Since we've not got the Book of Salisbury yet, would it be unreasonable for any given Manor in Roderick's holdings (the Lord of which isn't already known to us) to be held by someone outside Salisbury about a third of the time? So if we roll a D6 and on a 1 or 2 it's not held by Roderick before St Albans, but if all the Manors in a Hundred luck out, the last one must be held by another Baron. I don't think we'll be delving into the exact renders of the Hundreds; that's not our GM's style, but it'll be nice to have some idea of the task ahead of Ellen in consolidating other Barons' outlying Manors and Hundreds to the cause of keeping Salisbury Saxon-free.

So if we roll a D6 and on a 1 or 2 it's not held by Roderick before St Albans, but if all the Manors in a Hundred luck out, the last one must be held by another Baron.


I wouldn't bother with that last rule. The chance of that happening is (2/3)**N, where N is the number of manors in the Hundred. Assuming you have an average of 6 manors, the possibility is 9% that they are all held by the same lord. That is rare enough, I think.

Frankly, I wouldn't bother even rolling for all the manors within all the hundreds; too much work! :) I'd just decide that about X% of all the manors within the county is held by others outside the county, and then set the PKs to getting these to follow the Countess (at least 'until there is a King of Logres again'). Assuming that the previous holders are mainly dead at St. Albans and that the heirs are who knows how far away, it is probably going to be easy enough to convince isolated manors.

Those 'independent' hundreds would be a bigger deal, and I'd actually focus on them, probably make up a resident steward, what he wants and stuff like that.

Having a look at the map with Roderick's actual holdings within Salisbury, I notice that Ebble Manor is depicted as being outside Roderick's Demesne, held by Sir Graid. This seems to contradict the Charter in BotW which says "...Also we recognize the claim of all rights including Royal rights to the free Manor of Ebble..." Has Roderick subinfeudated Ebble to Sir Graid, and wouldn't that still mean Ebble was part of his lands, or is it something else?

So if we roll a D6 and on a 1 or 2 it's not held by Roderick before St Albans, but if all the Manors in a Hundred luck out, the last one must be held by another Baron.


I wouldn't bother with that last rule. The chance of that happening is (2/3)**N, where N is the number of manors in the Hundred. Assuming you have an average of 6 manors, the possibility is 9% that they are all held by the same lord. That is rare enough, I think.

Frankly, I wouldn't bother even rolling for all the manors within all the hundreds; too much work! :) I'd just decide that about X% of all the manors within the county is held by others outside the county, and then set the PKs to getting these to follow the Countess (at least 'until there is a King of Logres again'). Assuming that the previous holders are mainly dead at St. Albans and that the heirs are who knows how far away, it is probably going to be easy enough to convince isolated manors.
I'm pretty sure our ref won't be wanting us to troll round every non-vassal Manor anyway; it's just in case he does something like set us a Hundred to "pacify"...


Those 'independent' hundreds...
You mean the ones that have Salisbury as their Hundred Lord but don't accept Ellen as Robert's Regent (per 6. in the list below)?

...would be a bigger deal, and I'd actually focus on them, probably make up a resident steward, what he wants and stuff like that.

Aye (assuming you mean what I think).

The Hundreds that are part of other Barons' Demesnes are just bigger versions of the "Lord too far away to help" Manors that are in Count Salisbury's Hundred's, though Milkfield and Swans are probably close enough to their Lords' Caput Major to be holdable. Swans is particularly interesting because it's separated from Silchester only by a Royal Hundred, which is pretty much up for grabs "to keep in good order for the next King (honest)", so I'd kinda expect Levcomagus or Silchester to come that way to preserve territorial integrity... And if Levcomagus backed by his Liege is grabbing Annaswater, that makes Ambrosius Hundred held by the Church a "buffer state"... Assuming Gentian doesn't join in the carve-up of Kingsguard... That could get messy.

Greg, a few messages ago you said there were occurrences in Salisbury in the Anarchy Phase:



"things" come out of the woods and take the western hundreds away from humankind
The hundred of Wereside, which has the license to collect iron from all of Salisbury (bog iron), asks the countess for help in defending his land (whose forges and smithies are really, really important to repair/replace armor and weapons
Another task is to visit all of the moot sites to assure that the peasants will support the countess and also to convince the peasants (even of other lords) to support the countess
Levcomagus snatches at least one hundred
when the countess fights back the Duke of Silchester backs his own man and attacks Salisbury
and there are factions even within the county, some of whom build their own castles (protection against the Saxons, they will say) and also resist rule from the countess (she's just a woman, and not even from Salisbury!)

Are these in the GPC already, or should I pass them on to my GM for consideration?

Regarding Wereside: is that source of iron important to Counties other than Salisbury? Does control of the bog iron from Salisbury (assuming an accommodation can be reached with Baron Wereside, or Salisbury chooses to ignore the Baron's perogatives and set up their own smelters) give Count Salisbury an advantage?

The events that Greg mentioned are NOT in GPC. When GPC was written, BotW and the hundreds of Salisbury did not exist. But who amongst us hasn't had Levcomagus try and nibble some part of Salisbury away during the Anarchy, eh? :P

By 'independent hundreds' I meant hundreds that are not sworn to the Count of Salisbury, but are part of another honour entirely. Sure, the rightful heir of their liege lord might be somewhere else or unknown, but a steward with 6 knights to call upon is still in a much better negotiating position than a steward without a household knight at all (since that guy died at St. Albans, or was usually not present in this outlier anyway).

Okay, thanks. So any given Hundred will usually

not usually
might have


have "some" manors held by Lords other than the one who's got the majority holdings. In the case of Swans H., it's held for the most part (4 of 6 manors) by the Hundred Lord, but two nice manors are held by vassals of Duke Marche. All the other Salisbury Hundreds, even those that aren't part of Roderick's holdings would, similarly, have one or more minority holdings, potentially held by more than one Baron other than the Hundred Lord.

Since we've not got the Book of Salisbury yet, would it be unreasonable for any given Manor in Roderick's holdings (the Lord of which isn't already known to us) to be held by someone outside Salisbury about a third of the time?

Roderick holds about 50% of the county
including some holdings within the hundfreds of other hundfred lords


So if we roll a D6 and on a 1 or 2 it's not held by Roderick before St Albans, but if all the Manors in a Hundred luck out, the last one must be held by another Baron. I don't think we'll be delving into the exact renders of the Hundreds; that's not our GM's style, but it'll be nice to have some idea of the task ahead of Ellen in consolidating other Barons' outlying Manors and Hundreds to the cause of keeping Salisbury Saxon-free.

I suggest the your GM choose where he wants the trouble makes to be and just goes with that
I am just not up to getting too detailed in the content of a product where I may still change things

Having a look at the map with Roderick's actual holdings within Salisbury, I notice that Ebble Manor is depicted as being outside Roderick's Demesne, held by Sir Graid.

Hm, is that taken from the map I just posted?
If so, then it is wrong and the charter is correct


This seems to contradict the Charter in BotW which says "...Also we recognize the claim of all rights including Royal rights to the free Manor of Ebble..." Has Roderick subinfeudated Ebble to Sir Graid, and wouldn't that still mean Ebble was part of his lands, or is it something else?

So, I use Ebble to be a sort of vacation getaway for the count when he wants to get away from the hustle and bustle of the castle

Greg, a few messages ago you said there were occurrences in Salisbury in the Anarchy Phase:



"things" come out of the woods and take the western hundreds away from humankind
The hundred of Wereside, which has the license to collect iron from all of Salisbury (bog iron), asks the countess for help in defending his land (whose forges and smithies are really, really important to repair/replace armor and weapons
Another task is to visit all of the moot sites to assure that the peasants will support the countess and also to convince the peasants (even of other lords) to support the countess
Levcomagus snatches at least one hundred
when the countess fights back the Duke of Silchester backs his own man and attacks Salisbury
and there are factions even within the county, some of whom build their own castles (protection against the Saxons, they will say) and also resist rule from the countess (she's just a woman, and not even from Salisbury!)

Are these in the GPC already, or should I pass them on to my GM for consideration?

No
None of that is in the GPC
I consider them to be a pick and choose for the GM to use to stir things up if the PKs don't have enough trouble
I would never use them all in a campaign
It would bog down the game and kill the 1 adventure per year timing (which I consider to be very important to the campaign)
And would use up all the resources for the second time you play the campaign!
and take away from the essence of the Anarchy Period, which is to give the PKs a chance to expand outside the "basic training" of the Uther Period.
As a GM I would choose one of these to be active and hostile, and then have a council meeting among the factions, where most/all of the others would agree to support the countess' son


Regarding Wereside: is that source of iron important to Counties other than Salisbury?

Sure
Any source of iron is important
Here is a little preview from the Book of Uther, which lists the most important of the island's resources:
Iron
Britain has thirty three iron mines, twenty two of them in Saxon hands in the Perdue Forest, south of Londinium. Three are in the Forest of Dean outside Logres, and two are found in each of Bedegraine, Gloucester, and Brecklands, and one in each of Lonazep and Wuerensis.
Mines are either open pit mines, or extremely dangerous shaft mines. The raw ore is removed from the mine, then is smashed to bits, then washed. The less dense rock washes away, leaving behind the iron. This cleaned ore is then sent to a bloomery.
Bog iron is widespread, and found in many places. The downs, as in Sailsbury, are perfect for finding it. A chemical process leaches iron into masses that are low quality metal, but is a relatively safe and reliable source.


Does control of the bog iron from Salisbury (assuming an accommodation can be reached with Baron Wereside, or Salisbury chooses to ignore the Baron's perogatives and set up their own smelters) give Count Salisbury an advantage?

Yes
See the above excerpt for why

Greg, a few messages ago you said there were occurrences in Salisbury in the Anarchy Phase:



"things" come out of the woods and take the western hundreds away from humankind
The hundred of Wereside, which has the license to collect iron from all of Salisbury (bog iron), asks the countess for help in defending his land (whose forges and smithies are really, really important to repair/replace armor and weapons
Another task is to visit all of the moot sites to assure that the peasants will support the countess and also to convince the peasants (even of other lords) to support the countess
Levcomagus snatches at least one hundred
when the countess fights back the Duke of Silchester backs his own man and attacks Salisbury
and there are factions even within the county, some of whom build their own castles (protection against the Saxons, they will say) and also resist rule from the countess (she's just a woman, and not even from Salisbury!)

Are these in the GPC already, or should I pass them on to my GM for consideration?

No
None of that is in the GPC
I consider them to be a pick and choose for the GM to use to stir things up if the PKs don't have enough trouble
I would never use them all in a campaign
It would bog down the game and kill the 1 adventure per year timing (which I consider to be very important to the campaign)
And would use up all the resources for the second time you play the campaign!
and take away from the essence of the Anarchy Period, which is to give the PKs a chance to expand outside the "basic training" of the Uther Period.
Aye, using all these with Saxons (I assume there are Saxons) and other things already in the GPC on top might end up being a bit much :)

my edit is simply to remove the information about iron that is extraneous to this post