Ok it's a fair way off (especially with my Generous, Merciful and such)), but my Knight Errant seams to be taking a lot of Treasure, so with no estate or dependents to spend it on it's just accumulating, so should he finally accumulate the 50 Libra what will that get him should he buy a Manor from a lord? dose he get it Freehold, Demesne or Enfoeffed?

Or heaven forbid he was to build anew on disputed lands?

Ok it's a fair way off (especially with my Generous, Merciful and such)), but my Knight Errant seams to be taking a lot of Treasure, so with no estate or dependents to spend it on it's just accumulating, so should he finally accumulate the 50 Libra what will that get him should he buy a Manor from a lord?

Officially he cannot buy land
He can still give his lord a gift, who might give him a gift of land back, though
I figure that when he gets land that will bring him income basically forever, he needs to pay about ten times what one year of income will get him.
So that 50 gets him 5, or half the holding for a knight


dose he get it Freehold, Demesne or Enfoeffed?

Officially he cannot buy land
He can still give his lord a gift, who might give him a gift of land back, though


Or heaven forbid he was to build anew on disputed lands?
See the cost of things in Book of Warlords

I knew Freehold title was unlikely (of the very bloody variety) and freehold lease was only slightly less so.

I'd always assumed the "Purchase" was more a backroom deal that was portrayed as an exchange of gifts, as a GM I've always done the income X10 thing myself, but given a 15% for the Vassalage making the holding a Enfoeffed, if you wanted it to be Demesne I started the rate at 75 Quid and went up from there.

Just asking since I want something a bit solid to take to my GM.

Just to clarify some terms...

Demesne = land under your direct rule
Enfeoffed = land under your vassals

So the 1-manor vassal knight's manor is: Enfeoffed (if you ask the Count, i.e. held by his VASSAL, the knight) and Demesne (if you ask the knight, i.e. held by the knight himself).

Usually, we are looking at those terms from the viewpoint of the PK, in which case:

Demesne = manor under the PK's control, but he still owes 1 knight per manor, there are practically no manors at knight level that would be 'free income' without the knight service attached

Enfeoffed = manor held by another knight, who is the PK's vassal (just like the PK is the Count's vassal)


I suspect that you are using the old definitions from Book of the Manor where Demesne Manor was a manor for which no knight service was required. Such manors are almost non-existent: why would a lord grant such a manor to a PK, since the lord himself would still owe one knight for that manor to the king?
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One thing to keep in mind is also that the lords tended to take the long view: it is their son's and grandson's inheritance we are talking about here! Each manor parcelled out to someone else is making that inheritance less, and also diminishing the family's power and prestige. This is why you don't see many vassal knights, either; it is simply much better business supporting household knights rather than give lands to vassals.

Thijs and I were trying to fix some numbers on the manor 'prices' and I think we were talking about something like 10x manor income for a gift (reverts back to the Lord when the buyer dies) manor (so £100 for a normal £10 manor, but remember that most of that income goes to supporting the required knight and foot soldiers etc), and 20x for a grant (inheritable) manor (= £200 for a normal manor).

ATM we are working out of 3rd, 4th and 5.0 ed.

ATM we are at the end of the Consolidation/Boy King Era and the Conquest is about to kick off. Arthur has bean very good at killing off his Vassals Knights in the Saxon Pacification, Lord Robbert is down to around 50 Knights (a number of them are aging cripples with no living Heirs) Bastards are being legitimized to be made Vassals, Cadet Esquires are having their sons trained as knights wile they themselves act as Stewards to their extended families lands. some Heirless Freeholders have seen themselves killed off in Arthur's wars and Robbert has claimed their lands, and Knights loyal to outside lords are giving up their claims to lands in the County. Heiresses mourn their freshly dear departed Fathers, Uncles, Brothers and Grooms.

The pickings are ripe for any to the double handful of Knights Errant that Lord Robbert is hosting at his court. there is a distinct lack of able bodied young knights wit derelict claim floating about, but there are a goo number of eager young squires coming of age in the next few years.