My players have decided that in 499, they are going to try and get the Earl of Jagent to swear fealty to Countess Ellen/young Earl Robert. Then, the hypothetical Salisbury-Jagent bloc will ally with Cornwall to stare Ulfius and his Sussex allies down.

The problem is the Earl of Jagent is an Earl. I'm pretty sure any demands of fealty will be laughed at, after all. But I'm not sure if the demand should be met with just derisive laughter or if the Earl should set the PKs to some crazy task, like taking King Idres' head or slaying a mythical beast or the like. If they do manage to A. get Jagent to swear fealty to Salisbury (extremely unlikely) and B. not kill Idres (very likely) the King will probably be unreceptive of an offer of alliance from Salisbury. They just robbed him of his war, after all.

Their plan B is allying with Wessex, which would be plan A except both PKs, influential knights in Salisbury, have a great hate of the Saxons (Nanteleod? Who's that?).


The British Saxon PK now has a Hate of his fellow Saxons of 20 and has decided to challenge all devout followers of Wotan in general and baresarks in particular to one-on-one duels to the death to prove that a Christianized British Saxon is superior. I'm thinking of having a steady stream of baresarks, about one per year, showing up in his fief looking for a fight in response to his challenge. In 509 a Danish baresark will arrive to prove the superiority of Odin in combat, if the PK lives that long. I'm guessing I should give the knight a Reckless check. (None of this has actually occurred yet, our gaming session was cut short and I have some time to prep for this).

I've been attempting to put what I've learned in the other threads to use and I really appreciate the answers y'all come up with! Thanks!

The problem is the Earl of Jagent is an Earl. I'm pretty sure any demands of fealty will be laughed at, after all. But I'm not sure if the demand should be met with just derisive laughter or if the Earl should set the PKs to some crazy task, like taking King Idres' head or slaying a mythical beast or the like. If they do manage to A. get Jagent to swear fealty to Salisbury (extremely unlikely) and B. not kill Idres (very likely) the King will probably be unreceptive of an offer of alliance from Salisbury. They just robbed him of his war, after all.


If the Earl of Jagent was interested in swearing fealty, he would certainly be better served submitting to Cornwall rather than Salisbury, which by itself is much too small to be a credible counterbalance against Cornwall. At the very minimum, the Earl of Jagent should be demanding that Salisbury sends an army to help him, and any fealty swearing will have to wait until Cornwall has been beaten back. Which is a very tall order given the size difference and the fact that it would strip a lot of Salisbury's defenders away exactly when Silchester is likely to start raiding them or encouraging Saxons to do so, due to the assassination attempt of the Steward of Levcomagus you mentioned in the other thread.

King Idres would not be happy that he is being opposed by Jagent+Salisbury alliance, even if they are offering an alliance in return. He was going to get Jagent's fealty by force, and I can't see him accepting less from Jagent and Salisbury now. Kneel before Idres!

As for the berserk-challenge, yes, I think I would give a Reckless check for that, too.

I'm guessing I should give the knight a Reckless check.

Before you do that you need to think whether you will give Reckless checks to everyone with any Passion over 15
Remember that they are compelled to act according to that Passion, unless they fail a roll and fail a roll at its opposite
So, does a PK get a Reckless roll every time they use Hate (Saxons)?
How about Love (Family)
Amor?
Maybe, maybe not
Maybe it applies only to life-threatening situations
Just be clear with the rationale and the boundaries here

I'm guessing I should give the knight a Reckless check.

Before you do that you need to think whether you will give Reckless checks to everyone with any Passion over 15
Remember that they are compelled to act according to that Passion, unless they fail a roll and fail a roll at its opposite
So, does a PK get a Reckless roll every time they use Hate (Saxons)?
How about Love (Family)
Amor?
Maybe, maybe not
Maybe it applies only to life-threatening situations
Just be clear with the rationale and the boundaries here


After reading this and looking over the Trait description for Reckless, I've come to the conclusion that the PK won't get a check. Challenging baresarks to duels does sound like an outcome of his Passion, so unless he decides to fight the duel(s) naked or take similar risks, I won't be awarding the check. Thanks Greg! (PS. My players, all two of them, and I have had a blast with Pendragon!)




If the Earl of Jagent was interested in swearing fealty, he would certainly be better served submitting to Cornwall rather than Salisbury, which by itself is much too small to be a credible counterbalance against Cornwall. At the very minimum, the Earl of Jagent should be demanding that Salisbury sends an army to help him, and any fealty swearing will have to wait until Cornwall has been beaten back. Which is a very tall order given the size difference and the fact that it would strip a lot of Salisbury's defenders away exactly when Silchester is likely to start raiding them or encouraging Saxons to do so, due to the assassination attempt of the Steward of Levcomagus you mentioned in the other thread.

King Idres would not be happy that he is being opposed by Jagent+Salisbury alliance, even if they are offering an alliance in return. He was going to get Jagent's fealty by force, and I can't see him accepting less from Jagent and Salisbury now. Kneel before Idres!

As for the berserk-challenge, yes, I think I would give a Reckless check for that, too.


Well, now I know how to play Idres if they meet him! The PKs are most likely going to have to pick sides in the Jagent-Cornwall fight, and since both the PKs hold manors near to Silchester, their lands are going to be hit by Saxon raiders, Silchester raiders, or Silchester raiders disguised as Saxons while they are out. Tonight's game will be interesting.

The PKs decided to put together an alliance with Jagent and are trying to get Dorset in on it. This leads me to a couple of questions:

1. What would fighting in Jagent against Cornwall be like? In an earlier thread someone noted that fighting against Jagent would be knights trying to fight a guerrilla war, but the PKs are not only on the opposite side, they are bringing troops more suited to a straight-up fight with them.

2. In the GPC, Jagent submits after Idres besieges Ilchester. In the book of the Warlord (which I bought recently and am enjoying/mining for ideas) Jagent has a county castle. Which one would be the objective of Idres' offensive?

3. If the PKs manage to cobble together their coalition and beat back Cornwall, what next on that front? Does Idres come back next year? Does he try an amphibious invasion of Dorset?

4. How big of an army does Cornwall have? I can estimate Jagent and Salisbury (and potentially Dorset or Gentian) but I haven't been able to find similar numbers for the Cornish.

Somewhat related, if Uther couldn't conquer Somerset (according to BotW, Uther seems to have made very few territorial gains in his war there), how is Idres able to force King Cadwy to submit?

The PKs decided to put together an alliance with Jagent and are trying to get Dorset in on it. This leads me to a couple of questions:

1. What would fighting in Jagent against Cornwall be like? In an earlier thread someone noted that fighting against Jagent would be knights trying to fight a guerrilla war,

The defender has three choices:
1. fight it out in the field; if facing an overpowering force, this is a bad choice
2. Put the knights inside castle(s): the defenders only have to outlast the attacker, unless the attacker's force is sufficient to storm the castle
Jagent has three castles in it
Jagent: the county castle
The Pinnacle: If not held by a PK then it is a royal castle
Shining Stream: If not held by a PK then it is a royal castle
3. Pursue guerrilla warfare: possible only if there are large areas or good, known forests to hide in. Jagent is a relatively small area, but is nearly all wooded. This option lasts until the castles fall, since the main job of the knights is to attack foragers
The choice the players have is to decide which of these their PKs will want to pursue
All three are pretty dismal since the Cornwall/Armorican army is really big


but the PKs are not only on the opposite side, they are bringing troops more suited to a straight-up fight with them.

Sometimes PKs make bad choices
But the troops ought to be put into wherever the commander thinks they will be best used


2. In the GPC, Jagent submits after Idres besieges Ilchester. In the book of the Warlord (which I bought recently and am enjoying/mining for ideas) Jagent has a county castle. Which one would be the objective of Idres' offensive?

All of them.
Jagent has three castles in it
Jagent: the county castle
The Pinnacle: If not held by a PK then it is a royal castle
Shining Stream: If not held by a PK then it is a royal castle

3. If the PKs manage to cobble together their coalition and beat back Cornwall, what next on that front? Does Idres come back next year?

Yes


Does he try an amphibious invasion of Dorset?

Well, an actual amphibious assault, landing troops confronted by defenders, almost never works
Landing at an undefended port with docking facilities is the best option
Landing at a suitable place to disembark troops and horses is possible, but will take a long time to find such a site and long to disembark
plus there would be a very good chance that the horses would be ill, weak, and without landlegs


4. How big of an army does Cornwall have? I can estimate Jagent and Salisbury (and potentially Dorset or Gentian) but I haven't been able to find similar numbers for the Cornish.

No numbers have been given
To give fixed numbers will diminish the GM's freedom
In my mind, the army is certainly big enough to overcome an army from Jagent and Salisbury in the field, and also big enough to assault a simple castle (look at their type in the BoW) and besiege the others at the same time
But you as GM have the fnial choice


Somewhat related, if Uther couldn't conquer Somerset (according to BotW, Uther seems to have made very few territorial gains in his war there), how is Idres able to force King Cadwy to submit?

Probably by being very polite and not messing with Summerland's land or people, and with a big gift to the king

1. What would fighting in Jagent against Cornwall be like? In an earlier thread someone noted that fighting against Jagent would be knights trying to fight a guerrilla war, but the PKs are not only on the opposite side, they are bringing troops more suited to a straight-up fight with them.


If you have the numbers to fight Cornwall in a field battle, that would be probably better (if riskier) for the Salisbury team. After all, they should be wanting a quick resolution since their own lands are exposed to the Silchester-Sussex alliance while they are gone. And if I recall correctly, this is the same team who decided that trying to assassinate Sir Blains of Levcomagus in his own hall was a good idea... So if it were my campaign, Ulfius would gleefully raid Salisbury while its army is fighting against Cornwall in Jagent.

Two front war... never a good idea.
Doubly bad if you are the weaker party on BOTH fronts, even if that were the only front...



2. In the GPC, Jagent submits after Idres besieges Ilchester. In the book of the Warlord (which I bought recently and am enjoying/mining for ideas) Jagent has a county castle. Which one would be the objective of Idres' offensive?


Up to you. I think Idres would go first for the town: softer target since it is harder to defend than a castle, and hence quicker to crack; also an income source. Once that is done, he can just park the army around the castle and starve it to submission. In principle, that is; now it may be a bit different with Salisbury's army out as well. Similarly, the Earl of Jagent might see the writing on the wall and decide to defend Ilchester, on the principle that if he doesn't, at best the inhabitants feel that he is not giving them the protection that they deserve from him as part of the feudal contract, and at worst, there might be a sack and a massacre of the town. By basing himself on the town, he can negotiate with Idres as the siege is starting, and hopefully salvage some reasonable terms out of it by sparing Idres the need to press on the siege.

Actually, looking at the map, it seems like that the county castle of Jagent is actually at Ilchester. So the choice doesn't come up. You'd besiege/defend both at the same time.



3. If the PKs manage to cobble together their coalition and beat back Cornwall, what next on that front? Does Idres come back next year? Does he try an amphibious invasion of Dorset?


Depends how badly his ass gets kicked. If it is a minor upset (similar to his Original Timeline reverse at Dorchester the following year), I think he would lick his wounds, hire more mercs, and probably try to find out if he can bribe some Saxons to keep Salisbury distracted the next time. Of course, if he hears that Silchester-Sussex alliance has their own beef with Salisbury, hey, the enemy of my enemy, etc... I'd probably be raiding Jagent as much as possible, too, assuming that I have the knights for it and/or Salisbury's army goes home to defend their own manors.

If it is not obvious, I think your players may have made a bad strategic mistake of pissing off their neighbors. :P

If I were the Praetor of Dorset, and I'd know that Ulfius is Salisbury's enemy, I'd be thinking long and hard if I'd want to court BOTH Cornwall and Ulfius attacking me. I think I might rather see Salisbury-Jagent weaken Cornwall enough for me to be able to handle Cornwall on my own (after all, Dorset seemed strong enough in OTL to withstand a siege from unweakened Idres), assuming Cornwall even gets through Jagent with Salisbury helping, while staying neutral towards Ulfius. Thus, if Dorset stays neutral, there is no need for Cornwall to even attack Dorset at this time, and should concentrate on grinding Jagent down.



4. How big of an army does Cornwall have? I can estimate Jagent and Salisbury (and potentially Dorset or Gentian) but I haven't been able to find similar numbers for the Cornish.


Well these are rough numbers off the top of my head, mind you:

Depending how well the PKs have managed to consolidate the Salisbury county, they might have something like 80 - 120 knights total.

Jagent probably has less, it looks to be a rather small county, so I'd say something like 60 knights as a ballpark estimate.

Dorset is probably somewhere in between, and 4th edition indicated that they would be infantry-heavy (which might explain why the siege of Dorchester is unsuccessful).

Cornwall at this time has already the equivalent of 5 counties (Lyonesse, Cornwall itself, Ascalon, Tintagel, Devon), and remember that Idres has lands in Brittany as well, being the overlord of some of the kingdoms there. So I think you'd be looking at minimum something around 300 knights + possibly some mercenaries that Idres seems happy enough to be hiring (and rewarding with plunder, no doubt, so easy job with low risk = popular with mercs).

So yeah, the PKs have certainly taken a big bite, especially since they can't possibly bring ALL the Salisbury knights to Jagent to fight against Idres. That would expose Salisbury totally to Silchester/Saxon raids. Granted, Idres probably can't bring everyone, either, but unlike them, he doesn't have a strong enemy at his back. I wouldn't be surprised if Salisbury-Jagent alliance is facing at least 2:1 odds. The inclusion of Dorset -might- be enough to offset this enough to a fair fight, or it might just be enough to make 3:1 odds into 2:1, depending on the numbers of knights available. This was just a quick estimate on my part.



Somewhat related, if Uther couldn't conquer Somerset (according to BotW, Uther seems to have made very few territorial gains in his war there), how is Idres able to force King Cadwy to submit?


That is a very good question and one I have been wondering about, as well.

One thing to notice is that Cadwy doesn't actually submit to Idres. He continues the guerilla fight against Cornwall until Nanteleod comes to his aid, which is when the Somerset army marches out from the marshes to join with Nanteleod.

So the way I was going to play it was that Cornwall manages to hold onto the towns relatively easily, but gets harassed on the countryside (guerilla raids, etc), and basically get stalemated as they slowly grind down the castles. This would explain why Idres pretty much stops at Somerset; he is too busy trying to pacify it to continue expanding.

Uther, on the other hand, had bigger fish to fry. He was able to get the political victory of 'conquering' Somerset by making a treaty with Cadwy, something Idres never manages. He could have continued grinding Somerset down, but only at the cost of leaving a good part of his army there, and unlike Idres, he had Saxons to worry about, etc. He didn't want to get drawn to a long conflict at Somerset, he wanted to have a quick win, and once Somerset proved to be a tougher nut to crack than originally estimated, it was time to negotiate a treaty everyone could live with.


Oh, Greg managed to answer while I was writing this one up. Interesting to see what his answer will be. :)

With the terrible losses inflicted on Cornish chivalry at Terrabil, and any losses incurred at St Albans later (if any Cornish knights actually came to Uther's last call), it could be argued that Cornwall starts the Anarchy Phase with its own military forces severely attrited. Not, perhaps, to the level that a fight against 2 counties (that won at Terrbil, but still lost quite a number and certainly lost some at St Albans) is an even fight, but there's an option to make it "outnumnbered by less than 2:1" since Cornish render was going to be supporting Logres knights for the years between Terrabil and Uther's death.

Personally, I'd let your PCs reap the whirlwind they've sown. Show them the consequences of their dishonourable attempted murder and wild foreign policy. Salisbury divided between Idres and Ulfius, with Robert dead, Ellen in a Convent and Jenna married to a favourite of Duke or King and the heir to the County being a Cornish or Silchesterian creature, the knights homeless and even more motivated to see a strong King on the throne to support their claim for their lands. So long as he never knows what they tried to do to the Steward of Levcomagus. This is not D&D and they are not adventurers more powerful than 99% of the other protagonists in the setting. And adversity for some of the time makes for good game.

If they really want an alliance against Silchester, they should be going to Idres, cap in hand, probably with an offer of marriage to Jenna to bargain with. Cos other than that, they've got nuthin', from the sound of it.

With the terrible losses inflicted on Cornish chivalry at Terrabil, and any losses incurred at St Albans later (if any Cornish knights actually came to Uther's last call),


You make the mistake between the DUCHY of Cornwall (Gorlois) and the KINGDOM of Cornwall (Idres). It is the Kingdom of Cornwall, which doesn't participate in Gorlois' Rebellion nor the Battle of St. Albans, that starts snatching up counties during Anarchy. Their pool of knights is undiminished by the previous calamities. While those of Jagent, Salisbury and Dorset should be diminished, if anyone's is (my take, they would have made good of the losses with heirs of the dead knights, although the experience level might be a bit lower).



Personally, I'd let your PCs reap the whirlwind they've sown. Show them the consequences of their dishonourable attempted murder and wild foreign policy. Salisbury divided between Idres and Ulfius, with Robert dead, Ellen in a Convent and Jenna married to a favourite of Duke or King and the heir to the County being a Cornish or Silchesterian creature, the knights homeless and even more motivated to see a strong King on the throne to support their claim for their lands. So long as he never knows what they tried to do to the Steward of Levcomagus. This is not D&D and they are not adventurers more powerful than 99% of the other protagonists in the setting. And adversity for some of the time makes for good game.

If they really want an alliance against Silchester, they should be going to Idres, cap in hand, probably with an offer of marriage to Jenna to bargain with. Cos other than that, they've got nuthin', from the sound of it.


GPC has the offer to marry Prince Mark to Ellen, which doesn't make a lot of sense to me, since Robert is inheriting everything. Jenna would make more sense (if available) and then Robert can be sent off to Cornwall for his squirehood and suffer a 'hunting accident', making Mark's and Jenna's children the heirs of Salisbury.

That being said, if you want to give some hope for the PKs (I do agree that given the stuff they have already pulled with Silchester, provoking a war with Cornwall is STUPID), you could send them (or better yet, their new characters after these guys die for their sins) off with young Robert to hide somewhere, while their lands get parcelled off and Salisbury is taken over by whoever. A potential savior would be Nanteleod, who goes to war against Cornwall over Somerset. If Cornwall is holding Salisbury as well, I could see Nanteleod helping there, too, as long as he has Robert to install as the rightful heir. Of course, things will become tense for 508 - 510 again... But in the end, I think Arthur would back the rightful heir, even against Ulfius. Since Arthur's Just is so high. With Cornwall in control of Salisbury, it would be a no-brainer to restore Robert, since Idres is opposed to Arthur.

With the terrible losses inflicted on Cornish chivalry at Terrabil, and any losses incurred at St Albans later (if any Cornish knights actually came to Uther's last call),


You make the mistake between the DUCHY of Cornwall (Gorlois) and the KINGDOM of Cornwall (Idres). It is the Kingdom of Cornwall, which doesn't participate in Gorlois' Rebellion nor the Battle of St. Albans, that starts snatching up counties during Anarchy. Their pool of knights is undiminished by the previous calamities. While those of Jagent, Salisbury and Dorset should be diminished, if anyone's is (my take, they would have made good of the losses with heirs of the dead knights, although the experience level might be a bit lower).
Ah. Indeed, that's a distinction I'd missed. But which counties made up Gorlois (Duke of Cornwall) forces in his Rebellion? Surely at least Devonian, Tintagian and Cornish knights were the major components of his force, and their lands attainted once the Rebellion failed?





Personally, I'd let your PCs reap the whirlwind they've sown. Show them the consequences of their dishonourable attempted murder and wild foreign policy. Salisbury divided between Idres and Ulfius, with Robert dead, Ellen in a Convent and Jenna married to a favourite of Duke or King and the heir to the County being a Cornish or Silchesterian creature, the knights homeless and even more motivated to see a strong King on the throne to support their claim for their lands. So long as he never knows what they tried to do to the Steward of Levcomagus. This is not D&D and they are not adventurers more powerful than 99% of the other protagonists in the setting. And adversity for some of the time makes for good game.

If they really want an alliance against Silchester, they should be going to Idres, cap in hand, probably with an offer of marriage to Jenna to bargain with. Cos other than that, they've got nuthin', from the sound of it.


GPC has the offer to marry Prince Mark to Ellen, which doesn't make a lot of sense to me, since Robert is inheriting everything. Jenna would make more sense (if available) and then Robert can be sent off to Cornwall for his squirehood and suffer a 'hunting accident', making Mark's and Jenna's children the heirs of Salisbury.

That being said, if you want to give some hope for the PKs (I do agree that given the stuff they have already pulled with Silchester, provoking a war with Cornwall is STUPID), you could send them (or better yet, their new characters after these guys die for their sins) off with young Robert to hide somewhere, while their lands get parcelled off and Salisbury is taken over by whoever. A potential savior would be Nanteleod, who goes to war against Cornwall over Somerset. If Cornwall is holding Salisbury as well, I could see Nanteleod helping there, too, as long as he has Robert to install as the rightful heir. Of course, things will become tense for 508 - 510 again... But in the end, I think Arthur would back the rightful heir, even against Ulfius. Since Arthur's Just is so high. With Cornwall in control of Salisbury, it would be a no-brainer to restore Robert, since Idres is opposed to Arthur.

Aye, having the knights save Robert from that "hunting accident" and guard him through exile would be a good way of getting them settled back on Salisbury lands once Arthur sets things aright.

Ah. Indeed, that's a distinction I'd missed. But which counties made up Gorlois (Duke of Cornwall) forces in his Rebellion? Surely at least Devonian, Tintagian and Cornish knights were the major components of his force, and their lands attainted once the Rebellion failed?


Well, GPC implies that Gorlois' 'rebel-realm' might include Ascalon, Tintagel, Devon and Jagent, given that the showdown with Uther in 489 happens on the border of Somerset. However, in 491 Gorlois doesn't even try to pull the same stuff off, which implies that more people might see him in the wrong (or just recognize that this time, Uther is so pissed that he won't stop, and hence he will eventually win, so better to be on his side).

Even if knights get attainted, etc, it doesn't really matter. This is 491. Uther will be pardoning people (like Sir Brastias) or appointing new people. The peasants are still there. When the Kingdom of Cornwall takes over in 497-498, the peasants are still there. The income will flow. It is easy for Idres to expand his cadre of household knights by enlisting mercenary knights, and this would be just an additional lure to serve under him: a job for life! It is also enough time for a full new generation of squires to become knights. Ascalon, Tintagel and Devon seem to pretty much fall without a major fight, so any resident knights probably make their own accommodations with Idres. Heck, he might actually seem the best possible candidate for stability and security given the Anarchy.

At Battle of Netley Marsh, 508, the Cornish contingent helping the Saxons against Nanteleod numbers 500 knights. 500! And they probably still have some knights protecting their homes, too. I think the earlier 300 knights that I mentioned is an underestimate given that latter number, which is including Jagent admittedly (but Jagent is not that strong) and all the bloodletting in Somerset before Nanteleod kicks them out.

There's a lot of good advice here that I'll try to keep in mind when we play, though my players might do something rash again.

As far as I can see, there are three events that happen:
1. Dorset may or may not ally with the Coalition. The Praetor will remain neutral unless given a really good offer, and I don't think the PKs have a good idea of what a good offer of alliance to a lord unsure of their might would be.

2. Warfare in Jagent. Unless the players suddenly develop a Prudent streak, this is going to happen. As Greg stated, there are 3 choices they can make. Baron/Earl Jagent (whom I admittedly did too good of a job roleplaying, which convinced the PKs to change plans) will advocate waiting out the siege and guerrilla warfare (which plays to his perceived strengths). If Dorset signs on, the Praetor will advocate field battle or siege. 3 or 4 to 1 odds if it's just Salisbury and Jagent, less if Dorset joins ups.

3. The aftermath.
If the alliance wins, which is unlikely but not impossible, Ulfius will take note and limit his hostile actions to raids and renewed diplomatic efforts with the goal of getting the Saxon to face Silchester justice (and maybe some other concessions...). Idres will be back next year though, he needs Jagent so he can seize Dorset and Somerset (and their quarries and silver mines).
If they lose, in 500 Ulfius attacks Salisbury to get what he can (he needs to rebuild the army of Levcomagus following it's disintegration at Cholderton in 498). Either way there will be raids by Silchester and Essex in 499. The Cymric holds Medbourne in the Forest Sauvage, having freed it from Gorbuduc, which could serve as a good hiding spot if Salisbury is overrun.

There's a lot of good advice here that I'll try to keep in mind when we play, though my players might do something rash again.

As far as I can see, there are three events that happen:
1. Dorset may or may not ally with the Coalition. The Praetor will remain neutral unless given a really good offer, and I don't think the PKs have a good idea of what a good offer of alliance to a lord unsure of their might would be.

His best bet is to ally with Cornwall
even submit to him


2. Warfare in Jagent. Unless the players suddenly develop a Prudent streak, this is going to happen. As Greg stated, there are 3 choices they can make. Baron/Earl Jagent (whom I admittedly did too good of a job roleplaying, which convinced the PKs to change plans)

Just offhand, it looks like you have a count for each county
It doesn't work that way
I made that error at first too--it is visible in old supplements
but Book of Warlords goes into great detail about this
although I approve of YPWV

His best bet is to ally with Cornwall
even submit to him


Yet he doesn't do that in GPC, but fights Cornwall to preserve his independence.



Just offhand, it looks like you have a count for each county
It doesn't work that way
I made that error at first too--it is visible in old supplements
but Book of Warlords goes into great detail about this
although I approve of YPWV


Yeah, but since it is in GPC, and more people, especially starting groups have GPC but not BotW, it is easy to see why they'd play it like that.

Also, you can easily handwave it away with Anarchy: all those regionally biggest lords have subsumed the rest of the county 'Until the King Returns'.

Yes to all this below
But remember YPWV

-g





His best bet is to ally with Cornwall
even submit to him


Yet he doesn't do that in GPC, but fights Cornwall to preserve his independence.



Just offhand, it looks like you have a count for each county
It doesn't work that way
I made that error at first too--it is visible in old supplements
but Book of Warlords goes into great detail about this
although I approve of YPWV


Yeah, but since it is in GPC, and more people, especially starting groups have GPC but not BotW, it is easy to see why they'd play it like that.

Also, you can easily handwave it away with Anarchy: all those regionally biggest lords have subsumed the rest of the county 'Until the King Returns'.

[quote]
2. Warfare in Jagent. Unless the players suddenly develop a Prudent streak, this is going to happen. As Greg stated, there are 3 choices they can make. Baron/Earl Jagent (whom I admittedly did too good of a job roleplaying, which convinced the PKs to change plans)

Just offhand, it looks like you have a count for each county
It doesn't work that way
I made that error at first too--it is visible in old supplements
but Book of Warlords goes into great detail about this
although I approve of YPWV


I recently bought BotW and now I wish I had had it when I started the campaign. I'm trying to subtly overwrite the GPC info about counts, counties, etc. that my players are familiar with with the new ways of BotW.



Also, you can easily handwave it away with Anarchy: all those regionally biggest lords have subsumed the rest of the county 'Until the King Returns'.

That is pretty much what happened in Jagent. Tegfan ended up top dog there and proclaimed himself Count/Earl. Now he finds his independence challenged.

Last night's game went well for Salisbury, thanks to some lucky rolls by the players, and more importantly, some poor rolls by myself. The gist of it is that King Idres is now prisoner of either the Salisbury contingent or of Baron Tegfan of Jagent, which leads me to a few questions:

1. I know the knight who captured the King of Cornwall gets at least some part of the ransom, but who else shares in it? Who holds the King while the ransom is arranged?
2. Besides ransom, could the Southern Coalition (as my players style their nascent powerbase) extort any further concessions from the King?
Would Idres honor any of it? Would Prince Mark?
3. Salisbury, Jagent, and Dorset (blame a critted Orate roll for that one) have stopped Cornwall and captured it's King. What would the other power blocs think of this?
4. What would Prince Mark do? Something underhanded, no doubt, but what?

I'm not sure if this last one goes here or in the Rules Questions board.
5. What happens when an NPC noblewoman fumbles a passion roll? Does she go mad like knights do and disappear into the wilds? (Context for this one. The Cymric got severely wounded by an armored infantryman, and his wife tried healing him. She did a poor job and eventually tried to impassion herself with Love(husband). Cue a roll of 20...).

In light of all this, I am seriously considering having some townsmen from Leicester show up to ask the PKs to deal with their Hag problem...

Last night's game went well for Salisbury, thanks to some lucky rolls by the players, and more importantly, some poor rolls by myself.

Sounds exactly how I tend to roll as a GM


The gist of it is that King Idres is now prisoner of either the Salisbury contingent or of Baron Tegfan of Jagent, which leads me to a few questions:

1. I know the knight who captured the King of Cornwall gets at least some part of the ransom, but who else shares in it? Who holds the King while the ransom is arranged?
the higher ranking knight. He in effect "buys" the prisoner at a discount, but I would expect him to pay his men before the ransom arrives. Ransom takes time to collect and transport.


2. Besides ransom, could the Southern Coalition (as my players style their nascent powerbase) extort any further concessions from the King?

That is a GM decision. Normally, probably not, BUT this is Anarchy and anything goes.


Would Idres honor any of it?

Probably not, since it was unusual and his oath was given while under duress.


Would Prince Mark? But he too would probably make the promise and then break it because of the duress modifier.

He might.


3. Salisbury, Jagent, and Dorset (blame a critted Orate roll for that one) have stopped Cornwall and captured it's King. What would the other power blocs think of this?

They would be impressed, and likely think twice before casually raiding and risking significant pushback like an actual invasion by the coalition. Unless one of them thought it was just a lucky fluke and certainly would not happen again.


4. What would Prince Mark do? Something underhanded, no doubt, but what?

Actually, there could be doubt. He is a not such a bad guy in the first few mentions of him in Malory. Only after his wife is regularly putting horns on him that he loses it.
Ways to cheat on a ransom payment: ambush the party before they get to the exchange site; try to use rocks in a treasure chest instead of gold; ambush the guys with the treasure before they get it home.
Solutions to those: have sufficient escort for the gold; have clerks go through the chests before accepting them; and, once again, have sufficient escort for the gold



I'm not sure if this last one goes here or in the Rules Questions board.

This is definitely a new subject, and wherever it goes, it should start a new thread.Therefore, see the new thread. [quote]

Last night's game went well for Salisbury, thanks to some lucky rolls by the players, and more importantly, some poor rolls by myself. The gist of it is that King Idres is now prisoner of either the Salisbury contingent or of Baron Tegfan of Jagent, which leads me to a few questions:


That is not something going well, that is something going incredibly well, almost impossibly well. :P Critical Battle rolls for the Southern Alliance and Fumbles for Idres?



1. I know the knight who captured the King of Cornwall gets at least some part of the ransom, but who else shares in it? Who holds the King while the ransom is arranged?


King Idres would expect to be maintained in a manner according to his station, so no mere knight could possibly afford to hold him.

During Hundred Years' War, it was customary for the higher nobility, in particular the King and the Prince, to 'ransom' high value captives at a big discount, and then hold them for ransom themselves. Since they could afford to maintain those high ranking captives at proper level of maintenance for years that it could take for the ransom payment to be organized.

So the capturing knight might see something like 10% - 50% of the true ransom price, or he might be rewarded with land. Given that there are no huge power gap between the principals of this allied army, the division might even be relatively even.



2. Besides ransom, could the Southern Coalition (as my players style their nascent powerbase) extort any further concessions from the King?


They can of course try to extort anything they want. The more they humiliate King Idres, the less likely he (or his heirs) would be to keep his promises (given under duress, of course). An example of this is King John of France getting captured by the Black Prince at the Battle of Poitiers. His ransom was threatening to beggar France, and the peace treaty he signed would have given practically half of France (Henry II's Angevin Empire) to England. His heir, backed up by the outraged citizenry and nobility repudiated the peace treaty and dragged their feet in raising the ransom. The whole ransom was never paid and John returned to captivity in England as he had promised, dying there.

One HUGE question is... how do the conquered counties' nobility see Idres? Is he the restorer of law and order? Britain's Best Bet against the encroaching Scourge of Saxons? Or is he the rapacious warlord, the brutal conqueror? By my reading, Idres gets Devon relatively easily, so probably a deal was made there. In 4th Edition, Devon was still part of Cornwall in 530, I think, ruled by a Prince, which to me hints that it was a rather stable agreement. Would Devon even want to be detached from Cornwall? After all, even if Cornwall's army got decimated, it is probably still strong enough for defense against the Alliance. Whereas detached from Cornwall and maybe forced to join the Alliance means that Devon would have to send its knights to fight in Salisbury's wars. I would rather stay part of Cornwall at that point, were I Devon.



Would Idres honor any of it? Would Prince Mark?


Depends how badly his army got mauled and how onerous the ransom & treaty demands are. If his army was mauled badly, he might not be in the shape to start a new war any time soon, so would be less likely to go back on his word.

(Assuming that Prince Mark is Idres' son and heir in your campaign... it changes things if he is truly just one prince amongst many.)

On the other hand, Prince Mark has basically no incentive (other than familial duty and such) to sign off his father's conquests and beggar the kingdom to ransom his father. Idres knows this too, and I wouldn't be surprised if the wily king would try to use this to his advantage: "Yes, you have captured me, but if you want ANY ransom, you'll have to release me on parole to gather it; Prince Mark certainly is not going to be ransoming me, since I stand between him and the crown! Nor would he honor any peace treaty made while I am a captive, whereas I will of course honor my word."

Even if Prince Mark is just one prince amongst many, Idres could still claim that the Cornish princes are happy to plot against him, and would not be paying his ransom, unless he is there in person to collect it. This could actually even be true.

I think Idres would be happy to make a deal in which he will keep most of his conquests and doesn't have to beggar his country to pay the full ransom, and which sees him free sooner rather than later. He might not be kidding about the chance of one of the princes staging a coup in his absence. If the terms are lenient and his army got smashed, he might actually be happy to keep his word, too, and hope that the Alliance and Silchester-Sussex will waste their strength against one another, while he rebuilds his army.

If a humiliating peace treaty is rammed down Idres' throat, he would plot revenge, I think, trying to coordinate an alliance with Silchester for a two-pronged invasion, hopefully overpowering the smaller Alliance whilst they are divided.



3. Salisbury, Jagent, and Dorset (blame a critted Orate roll for that one) have stopped Cornwall and captured it's King. What would the other power blocs think of this?


They would definitely take note. This happens before Nanteleod gets his house in order, so for now, he is too distant to worry about it. Same with Lindsey: too far, not his problem.

However, Silchester would definitely worry, given the hostility of Salisbury to, and the assassination attempt on, Levcomagus. All the more reason for them to try to get their own coalition in order against the Alliance.

I can see Wessex calculating the odds and not liking what it sees, too. After all, it is now sandwiched between two powerblocks, the Alliance on one side, and Silchester-Sussex on the other. I could see Cerdic making an effort to co-opt the Alliance to support him as the High King, but if that fails (as it probably would, Salisbury having not already submitted to him), he might try to keep his head down and hope that no one concentrates on him. If he did have some raiding going on with Sussex, he would likely make peace there really quick, to free Sussex as a counterbalance to the Alliance, rather than risk getting stabbed in the back by the Alliance while he is entangled with Sussex. I don't see Cerdic willing to play the second flute to anyone else (Aelle, Ulfius, Salisbury), unless he really needs to (like needing Sussex' help against Nanteleod in 508), so neutrality would seem like a better option. Assuming he can stay neutral. If not, I think he would probably opt to support Sussex (again, the example of 508), and the idea that if Aelle wins out, he still won't be acceptable to most Cymri, while Cerdic might have the opportunity to become the compromise candidate for High Kingship...

Kent probably would be happy. Anything that distracts and weakens Silchester-Sussex is good for them.

Essex could go either way. I forget how much your PKs have pissed them off. If they have a beef with Salisbury, they might be amenable to Ulfius' suggestions of crushing Salisbury together. Otherwise, they could see Silchester's distraction as a good chance to seize London a couple of years earlier than in the original GPC timeline. Of course, Essex will have their own problems with Angles soon enough, who will dismantle Essex' little 'empire' (Huntingdon and Hertford) in the subsequent years.

Idres, probably a canny politician, would be more than happy to point out the dangers that the Alliance faces on the Silchester front if the war with Cornwall continues. So how about we go back to status quo ante bellum, eh? Let bygones be bygones? That frees up the Alliance to defend itself against Silchester, and Idres is happy to digest his conquests so far. Honest.

He might actually mean it, too, having been given such a whopping. He might figure that it is best to lay low and let the Alliance and Silchester weaken each other for a while now, as I said earlier. But if the Alliance seems to be losing, I am sure he would seize the chance to have his revenge and gobble up Jagent and Dorset. There is also the possibility that if the Alliance seems to be in an expansionist mood, he might jump in again with the thought that it is easier to fight the Alliance now that they are still distracted by Silchester, rather than wait until they are even stronger.



4. What would Prince Mark do? Something underhanded, no doubt, but what?


See above for some ideas. Prince Mark isn't actually famously deceitful yet, and is Loyal to Idres according to his write up in GPC. His Honor is 15, for crying out loud! But you are of course free to make him as dastardly as you want to. One very, very dastardly trick would be to send Idres some Cornish servants/valets/squires to serve him, and one of them poisons Idres in captivity (or, if the PKs wouldn't allow such, how about the Royal Physician to examine the King that he is healthy and not maltreated in captivity?). Oh, the perfidy of Salisbury! Killing our beloved King by keeping him in such confines that he became ill and died! Arise, Cornwall, and avenge our King! King Idres is Dead, Long Live King Mark!

That would actually be Prince Mark's best bet: it gets rid of the ransom & any peace treaty extorted from Idres, and makes him King. Up to you if he would be heartless/honorless enough and if he is positioned as the crown prince.



5. What happens when an NPC noblewoman fumbles a passion roll? Does she go mad like knights do and disappear into the wilds? (Context for this one. The Cymric got severely wounded by an armored infantryman, and his wife tried healing him. She did a poor job and eventually tried to impassion herself with Love(husband). Cue a roll of 20...).


She would become mad, but I wouldn't make her run off into the wilds. Just become mad, and probably put into a nunnery to be taken care of until she recovers (if ever). She might even think that she killed her husband and that he is now a ghost, haunting her?

Nice answers and information all around Morien,
but

She would become mad, but I wouldn't make her run off into the wilds. Just become mad, and probably put into a nunnery to be taken care of until she recovers (if ever). She might even think that she killed her husband and that he is now a ghost, haunting her?

is priceless

[quote author=Cavalier link=topic=2906.msg22244#msg22244 date=1442595144]
4. What would Prince Mark do? Something underhanded, no doubt, but what?

Actually, there could be doubt. He is a not such a bad guy in the first few mentions of him in Malory. Only after his wife is regularly putting horns on him that he loses it.
Ways to cheat on a ransom payment: ambush the party before they get to the exchange site; try to use rocks in a treasure chest instead of gold; ambush the guys with the treasure before they get it home.
Solutions to those: have sufficient escort for the gold; have clerks go through the chests before accepting them; and, once again, have sufficient escort for the gold


I had forgotten that Prince/King Mark had a reputation for being a relatively wise ruler before his ill-fated marriage. I will have to remember these methods for more underhanded knights in the future.
I'm not sure if this last one goes here or in the Rules Questions board.

This is definitely a new subject, and wherever it goes, it should start a new thread.Therefore, see the new thread.

Thanks Greg!

That is not something going well, that is something going incredibly well, almost impossibly well. :P Critical Battle rolls for the Southern Alliance and Fumbles for Idres?

Idres actually succeeded all his rolls in the battle and melee, I just ended up rolling low. One of his bodyguards did Fumble and deserted his king, which arguably led to Idres getting captured.



Essex could go either way. I forget how much your PKs have pissed them off. If they have a beef with Salisbury, they might be amenable to Ulfius' suggestions of crushing Salisbury together. Otherwise, they could see Silchester's distraction as a good chance to seize London a couple of years earlier than in the original GPC timeline. Of course, Essex will have their own problems with Angles soon enough, who will dismantle Essex' little 'empire' (Huntingdon and Hertford) in the subsequent years.

Essex does have a raid brewing up this year, while the PKs are out in Jagent. Maybe they should have paid the tribute for once.



She would become mad, but I wouldn't make her run off into the wilds. Just become mad, and probably put into a nunnery to be taken care of until she recovers (if ever). She might even think that she killed her husband and that he is now a ghost, haunting her?

I will have this happen, it's too good to not use!

Also, Morien, Greg, thanks for the answers, especially with regards to ransoms, Prince Mark, and what Idres might offer/suggest during the peace negotiations. I'm pretty sure the PKs would spring for status quo ante bellum, especially with Silchester and Essex raiding the east half of Salisbury...

Idres actually succeeded all his rolls in the battle and melee, I just ended up rolling low. One of his bodyguards did Fumble and deserted his king, which arguably led to Idres getting captured.


GM choice there... I am not sure I would have allowed the PKs to get into a personal combat with Idres without at the very least a Success vs. Failure in Battle (or Critical vs. Partial Success). But I do admit that it does make things nicely epic. :) (Hope you remembered the +5/-5 for outnumbering in Battle, too.)

Still, it is some very good rolling on the PKs part, since one would expect Idres' Bodyguards to be the best knights that Cornwall has, with high Homage (Idres) Passions which should kick in to protect the King. Then again, they are Cornishmen. :P

(We had a pretty epic Battle encounter in our campaign with the Builth War (in the Savage Mountains book), with the RTK PK starting with a Critical Battle vs. Fumbled Battle... so it was basically a dawn attack on sleeping, unaware enemy. Rout happened almost instantly, with the enemy king captured after he fumbled his Hunting roll to escape into the woods in his shirtsleeves, basically... That RTK PK was within a marriage alliance from becoming the next King of Builth himself, but alas, he chose to let his son to marry for love rather than to secure a tribal alliance, which would have ended the war there and then. Of course, he happened to die against a Giant a couple of years later anyway, so maybe it wasn't such a huge loss, but still. Would have made for a nice title to pass on to his son!)



Also, Morien, Greg, thanks for the answers, especially with regards to ransoms, Prince Mark, and what Idres might offer/suggest during the peace negotiations. I'm pretty sure the PKs would spring for status quo ante bellum, especially with Silchester and Essex raiding the east half of Salisbury...


There is the question of the King's Ransom, too. The more they push on that, the more antagonistic Idres would be. However, at the same time, the more he has the pay, the less he has for hiring mercenaries (assuming the ransom would get paid, of course). So it is one of those 'What to do with Germany after WWI' -questions. :)

A lot depends on Idres' personality in your campaign, of course. In GPC, he is clearly expansionist, so he probably would like to add the Alliance to his possessions. On the other hand, he has just been handed a stinging setback. That might make him more vengeful but also more careful.

He also has been using diplomacy (Prince Mark's mission to Salisbury), so it might even be possible that when he hears about those nasty Saxons and Silchester raiding Salisbury, he might try to gain by diplomacy what he couldn't gain by the force of arms: join Cornwall and support Idres as the High King of Britain, and rewards will flow. He probably has some manors in Ascalon and Tintagel (former Royal Manors) that he could be dangling in front of the PKs (the motivating powers behind the Alliance and clearly the movers and shakers in Salisbury, too) and Count Tegfan of Jagent (promise to legitimize his takeover of the whole county? + maybe some more lands in Ascalon & Tintagel) and Praetor Jonathel of Dorset (ditto). He could, rather persuasively and accurately, point out that the Alliance alone vs. Silchester-Sussex-Essex will favor the latter by a large margin, but add Cornwall's strength to the Alliance's side, and things look much more rosy. Why have just Cornwall's neutrality when you can have Cornwall's support? And to cap the New Alliance, he could suggest Prince Mark marrying Countess Ellen, making Robert the stepson of a future King of Cornwall (and probably High King). And that is only the beginning, of course. Why, once Silchester is reduced to obedience and the Saxons driven to the sea, there will be plenty of lands to distribute to loyal Barons (Devon, Jagent, Dorset, Salisbury) and new Barons made (PKs especially), etc... *dangling a bait* :)

GM choice there... I am not sure I would have allowed the PKs to get into a personal combat with Idres without at the very least a Success vs. Failure in Battle (or Critical vs. Partial Success). But I do admit that it does make things nicely epic. :) (Hope you remembered the +5/-5 for outnumbering in Battle, too.)

Still, it is some very good rolling on the PKs part, since one would expect Idres' Bodyguards to be the best knights that Cornwall has, with high Homage (Idres) Passions which should kick in to protect the King. Then again, they are Cornishmen. :P

The PK unit commander rolled a Crit on his Battle and seized the chance to go after Idres. I actually had Idres' bodyguards be Breton knights, for that extra bit of flavor. Most of them made their Homage rolls, one of the two aiding Idres against one PK didn't.



There is the question of the King's Ransom, too. The more they push on that, the more antagonistic Idres would be. However, at the same time, the more he has the pay, the less he has for hiring mercenaries (assuming the ransom would get paid, of course). So it is one of those 'What to do with Germany after WWI' -questions. :)

A lot depends on Idres' personality in your campaign, of course. In GPC, he is clearly expansionist, so he probably would like to add the Alliance to his possessions. On the other hand, he has just been handed a stinging setback. That might make him more vengeful but also more careful.

He also has been using diplomacy (Prince Mark's mission to Salisbury), so it might even be possible that when he hears about those nasty Saxons and Silchester raiding Salisbury, he might try to gain by diplomacy what he couldn't gain by the force of arms: join Cornwall and support Idres as the High King of Britain, and rewards will flow. He probably has some manors in Ascalon and Tintagel (former Royal Manors) that he could be dangling in front of the PKs (the motivating powers behind the Alliance and clearly the movers and shakers in Salisbury, too) and Count Tegfan of Jagent (promise to legitimize his takeover of the whole county? + maybe some more lands in Ascalon & Tintagel) and Praetor Jonathel of Dorset (ditto). He could, rather persuasively and accurately, point out that the Alliance alone vs. Silchester-Sussex-Essex will favor the latter by a large margin, but add Cornwall's strength to the Alliance's side, and things look much more rosy. Why have just Cornwall's neutrality when you can have Cornwall's support? And to cap the New Alliance, he could suggest Prince Mark marrying Countess Ellen, making Robert the stepson of a future King of Cornwall (and probably High King). And that is only the beginning, of course. Why, once Silchester is reduced to obedience and the Saxons driven to the sea, there will be plenty of lands to distribute to loyal Barons (Devon, Jagent, Dorset, Salisbury) and new Barons made (PKs especially), etc... *dangling a bait* :)

The PKs will get the news about the raids at about the same time they will be negotiating with Cornwall. That should cause them to rethink things a bit, in addition to Idres' arguments, which would most likely take the form of the above with some additional subtle offers meant to weaken the unity of the Alliance members.

The PK unit commander rolled a Crit on his Battle and seized the chance to go after Idres. I actually had Idres' bodyguards be Breton knights, for that extra bit of flavor. Most of them made their Homage rolls, one of the two aiding Idres against one PK didn't.


Sounds like a fair cop, then!



The PKs will get the news about the raids at about the same time they will be negotiating with Cornwall. That should cause them to rethink things a bit, in addition to Idres' arguments, which would most likely take the form of the above with some additional subtle offers meant to weaken the unity of the Alliance members.


*nods* I think Idres would benefit the most from getting the whole Alliance united behind him, but I could also see him pointing out to Salisbury's problems with the Saxons and Silchester and ask, if Jagent and Dorset really want to be tied to that sinking ship, if Salisbury (the PKs) is obstinate. After all, he has this amazing deal to offer to Jagent and Dorset, if they switch sides and swear allegiance to him, instead...

Your PK that was fighting vs Idres-plus-Inspired-bodyguard (with a non-Inspired one as backup) did very well to win... I'd say he'd done very well just to survive...

Lovely political fallout you've generated though. As Morien is hinting, the players might have to do some serious Intriguing and roleplaying to neutralise Idres and preserve the alliance, let alone get him on-side.

Indeed. Your group did it different than my group (mine used the Picts in Jagent hitting the baggage train repeatedly), but Idres has the capacity to be a thorn for a long time. The key is to have the players feel they are making a difference and are having fun. Even in the times, my group felt railroaded, then had fun and realized many times they set themselves on the track themselves.