5. What happens when an NPC noblewoman fumbles a passion roll? Does she go mad like knights do and disappear into the wilds?

I would say yes. The rules are not made for one set of characters and not others. I've had a number of well intentioned GMC monks wander around the country side howling in the moonlight


(Context for this one. The Cymric got severely wounded by an armored infantryman, and his wife tried healing him. She did a poor job and eventually tried to impassion herself with Love(husband).

Side note: this looks like she tried First Aid more than once. Remember that it can be used only once per wound. But I am guessing that the knight was chopped up.


Cue a roll of 20...).

My players would be howling with laughter at this while the player-knights wold be horrified.


In light of all this, I am seriously considering having some townsmen from Leicester show up to ask the PKs to deal with their Hag problem...

That's a great scenario idea
Probably best to save it for a few years, maybe until the PK is remarried if you want to really make it terrible

My answer from the original thread:

She would become mad, but I wouldn't make her run off into the wilds. Just become mad, and probably put into a nunnery to be taken care of until she recovers (if ever). She might even think that she killed her husband and that he is now a ghost, haunting her?

I was reading the Hag idea as more of a Black Annis -type thing that comes up because the Townsmen have heard of the PKs' prowess. But sure, if you want to connect it to the maddened wife, why not.

Just as a note since Greg mentioned remarriage... Since the wife is not dead (for certain if she runs to the wilderness), you can't remarry right away. I think there is an argument made for abandonment of the marriage, which would be grounds for annulment, I think. Probably would take a year, though. And complicate things a lot if she shows up later and is cured from her madness, only to find that her husband has remarried...

How long would a knight with a 'missing' wife have to wait before remarrying? 1 years, 7 years?

How long would a knight with a 'missing' wife have to wait before remarrying? 1 years, 7 years?

I'd say a year and a day before she's declared "legally dead" and all lifetime contracts rendered null, and inheritance laws applied.

How long would a knight with a 'missing' wife have to wait before remarrying? 1 years, 7 years?

I'd say a year and a day before she's declared "legally dead" and all lifetime contracts rendered null, and inheritance laws applied.


I think annulment (without prejudice) due to the abandonment of the marriage would be likelier, as far as remarriage is concerned. No problem with kids: since the marriage was valid at the time, they are legitimate still. Same as when two royals get an annulment due to consanguinity (i.e. medieval divorce for rich people), the kids remain legitimate normally since the marriage was entered with good intentions and believed to be valid.

Not sure with the inheritance. Of course, this is rarely a problem as usually the husband would stay as the children's guardian until they grow up, or the custodian of his wife's property during the marriage. However, it could become an issue if the wife is an heiress and there are no kids: if the marriage gets annulled or the wife declared dead, the inheritance would revert to another cousin or the liege. The Knight might have an incentive keeping his wife & marriage legally valid in that case!

Side note: this looks like she tried First Aid more than once. Remember that it can be used only once per wound. But I am guessing that the knight was chopped up.

She was actually using Chirurgery and failed or Fumbled almost every roll which led to the attempted use of the Passion.



My players would be howling with laughter at this while the player-knights wold be horrified.

Pretty much what happened with my players, coupled with the endangered knight being relieved that he could hire a better healer...



I was reading the Hag idea as more of a Black Annis -type thing that comes up because the Townsmen have heard of the PKs' prowess. But sure, if you want to connect it to the maddened wife, why not.

A quick side note: I had meant the townsmen to be seeking someone who could defeat the Black Annis, not that the crazed wife becoming a Hag would be a bad thing...

It's good to know that non-knights do run the same risks that knights do when using Passions. Plus, I hadn't known about the annulment for non-royals, I'll need to remember this in case a PK ever wants out of a marriage.

Chirurgery is rolled once per week, not per wound, so I assume this happened over a month or so?

Same rules technically apply to all children of God. Royals are simply more able to argue and bribe for consanguinity plea. I should check up on other reasons, too. Annulments are not easy,, and nigh impossible if the other party objects.

Chirurgery is rolled once per week, not per wound, so I assume this happened over a month or so?

Same rules technically apply to all children of God. Royals are simply more able to argue and bribe for consanguinity plea. I should check up on other reasons, too. Annulments are not easy,, and nigh impossible if the other party objects.


Yes, the knight ended up taking about 3 months to recover. It's worth noting that even Royals may not be able to obtain annulments, as in Henry the Eighth's case (though that one was unusual).

Yes, the knight ended up taking about 3 months to recover. It's worth noting that even Royals may not be able to obtain annulments, as in Henry the Eighth's case (though that one was unusual).


Henry VIII's case had much to do with the fact that the woman he was trying to get rid of was the aunt of the King of Spain who just happened to be the Holy Roman Emperor, too. The Pope was definitely aware of the Spanish army in Naples and elsewhere in the Italian Peninsula. Might not be such a good idea to antagonize the Emperor over the wishes of one King of a small, peripheral (compared to Spain and France of the time) island Kingdom. Especially as a pope had already ruled the marriage valid.

But an example how difficult it could be even for a relatively powerful king, look up Philip II Augustus and Princess Ingeborg:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_II_of_France#Marital_problems

A mere knight would have a significant uphill battle, if the wife (or her family) is there to object.

Here is a good introduction of medieval marriage law:
http://digitalhistory.concordia.ca/consistory/about.php?id=3&expand=about

It actually becomes pretty hard to get rid of a maddened wife, even if she runs away into the woods. After all, she COULD still be alive, and hence any subsequent marriages would be bigamy. There are apparently cases of a spouse deserting the other partner, who is then stuck in a limbo, unable to marry. I think getting the legal 'yep, she is dead' through would take much longer than a year and a day.

That's a splendid reference. It certainly swings my view the other way: if the wife deserts you (because she ran off shrieking into the woods, or you put her in a Nunnery rather than care for her at home), you can probably kiss goodbye to the chance of any more legitimate children. Seems the onus is on proving she's dead as it's the only truthful way of the marriage legally ending (assuming it was, objectively, valid at time of wedding). A cursory Google didn't throw up any "legal declaration of death" results. I suppose a King could declare someone legally dead... I suspect most people would just have to get on with their lives without remarrying legally if their spouse just disappeared.