A couple of questions occurred to me as I was working up the members of a baronial court...

What happens to the squires of household knights when they complete their training? Assuming they have the income and equipment to become knights themselves, would they generally become knights of the same household? If they don't have means of support, perhaps because the lord is "full up" on household knights at the moment, what normally becomes of them? Would most become esquires, serjants, mercenary knights?

I find myself thinking, unless the mortality rate of household knights is fairly high, a number of squires would be trained but not have the opportunity to become knights. Am I wrong?

A question that spins off from that thought: what happens to a squire whose knight is killed before his training is complete? Is he likely to be "adopted" by another knight or does he have to try to find another position for himself?

What happens to the squires of household knights when they complete their training? Assuming they have the income and equipment to become knights themselves, would they generally become knights of the same household?

Not necessarily. There has to be a place for them to be paid for,


If they don't have means of support, perhaps because the lord is "full up" on household knights at the moment, what normally becomes of them? Would most become esquires, serjants, mercenary knights?

Yes, those are the options


I find myself thinking, unless the mortality rate of household knights is fairly high, a number of squires would be trained but not have the opportunity to become knights. Am I wrong?

You are not wrong


A question that spins off from that thought: what happens to a squire whose knight is killed before his training is complete? Is he likely to be "adopted" by another knight or does he have to try to find another position for himself?

He will have been attached to the household where he became a squire. He would return there and hope to be chosen by a knight again, or perhaps assigned to one. If his father was important, then the chances are better for this.

I find myself thinking, unless the mortality rate of household knights is fairly high, a number of squires would be trained but not have the opportunity to become knights. Am I wrong?

You are not wrong


Hmm, that opens up, in my mind, a pool of esquries looking for office or, interestingly, the opportunity to become a knight - be means fair or foul. Some interesting character/plot line possibilities there...

What happens to the squires of household knights when they complete their training? Assuming they have the income and equipment to become knights themselves, would they generally become knights of the same household? If they don't have means of support, perhaps because the lord is "full up" on household knights at the moment, what normally becomes of them? Would most become esquires, serjants, mercenary knights?
It's not the knight that they've been squiring for that's the issue here, directly. While I'd expect that the sons of most Lords would be squired with another landed knight, there might be a trusted household knight who gets assigned some Lords' sons to train over the years. Whether a Lord has enough income to support his son as a knight is still potentially in question, but at least the squire would expect to become a knight when his father died, and would certainly be at the front of the queue if there are any household knight slots that need filling. A Lord has more pull to find his 21-y.o. son a place in some household somewhere, even if it's not the Lord's own Liege's household.

Sons of household knights who become squires are much more likely to stay as esquires once they reach majority, whether they've been serving a household or a landed knight.

somewhere, even if it's not the Lord's own Sons of household knights who become squires are much more likely to stay as esquires once they reach majority, whether they've been serving a household or a landed knight.


Not to mention that sons of household knights would be extremely rare birds, unless they are bastards, since household knights rarely if ever marry.

But yeah, like womble said, the higher up the daddy, the better the chance that the son finds a place somewhere. After all, wouldn't you like the next Baron of Wherever to have a loyalty passion towards you, thanks to the years of service as your household knight? Even in smaller scale, in our campaign the heirs of vassal knights are pretty much guaranteed a spot in the liege lord's household when they are knighted: what better way to foster those Homage Passions than years of close service? Also, a very good way for the Lord to find out what kind of men his future vassal knights will be.

Not to mention that sons of household knights would be extremely rare birds, unless they are bastards, since household knights rarely if ever marry.

I'm not sure we've thunk this one quite all the way through. I know the appreciation has become that household knights can't afford to support a wife, so couldn't marry, usually. But "every" landed knight has a wife, and all those wives have ladies-in-waiting who are already supported, who could become wives for household knights. Baronial courts are slewing in maidservants, and the Countess Generica much prefers to be served by those of Noble blood. Making matches between "the staff" has potential advantages, along with some downsides: with the mortality rate amongst knights, having extra squires around to step up might be desirable; having the household married together might foster greater unity, and curb the excesses of some of the younger, hotter blood; ladies-in-waiting having progeny might be inconvenient for the Lady of the household; mediating marital strife might not be something the Lord wants to be bothered with.

On the whole, though, I think a Lord might find it better, on balance, to take some control over his household by pairing them off... Whaddaya think?

On the whole, though, I think a Lord might find it better, on balance, to take some control over his household by pairing them off... Whaddaya think?


Since this is starting to veer a bit away from the original topic, I decided to start a new thread:
http://nocturnal-media.com/forum/index.php?topic=2934.0