In real life, there were smallholders of a single knight's fee that held directly from the King. Legally and technically they were considered barons. I have read of one case where even though the landholder didn't have the perks or title of a baron, he was forced to pay 100 marks relief for his estate as if it were a barony, versus the customary 5 pounds for a single knight's fee because he was a tenant-in-chief.

How would you handle this situation in BotW/BotE terms?

In real life, there were smallholders of a single knight's fee that held directly from the King. Legally and technically they were considered barons. I have read of one case where even though the landholder didn't have the perks or title of a baron, he was forced to pay 100 marks relief for his estate as if it were a barony, versus the customary 5 pounds for a single knight's fee because he was a tenant-in-chief.

How would you handle this situation in BotW/BotE terms?

In actual mechanics, I'd say the "standard" relief for a single "£10 manor" would be the usual (from BotW) "£10 if you're a knight and £5 per knight you owe if you have vassals of your own", so in the case you're asking about, £10. But, as BotW says, relief is at the discretion of the Lord from whom the land is held, and if he doesn't like you, or your father did something to tick him off, or he just wants to hand it over to another favourite, or bring it back into his demesne, the Lord (King, in the case of directly held manors) can set relief at whatever level he thinks an appropriate height of hurdle to be jumped. 'Course, if he does that a lot, his other Vassals are going to get a bit jittery.

BotW sets a level of £100 when a fief held from the King switches to per Baronum holding rather than Knights Service, but the title "Baron" is in the King's gift to bestow on anyone, so that's probably more a general guideline than a hard and fast rule, since the King can do pretty much as he pleases, and the actual obligations don't change just because the title has, but as I read it, recognised Barons have the additional rights of:

Trial at the King's Bench.
Representation by Champion in Trial by Combat.
Right of Revolt.


Again, naming Jon one-Manor "Baron" is going to tread on the toes of the greater Barons whose goodwill the King can't necessarily do without, resentful lot that they are :)
above and beyond the rights held by all nobles.

Good answer, womble. Nothing to add. :)

I will second most of this



In real life, there were smallholders of a single knight's fee that held directly from the King. Legally and technically they were considered barons. I have read of one case where even though the landholder didn't have the perks or title of a baron, he was forced to pay 100 marks relief for his estate as if it were a barony, versus the customary 5 pounds for a single knight's fee because he was a tenant-in-chief.
How would you handle this situation in BotW/BotE terms?

Unless it got edited out, BoW specifically states that KAP uses the term Baron for the Tenants-in-chief



In actual mechanics, I'd say the "standard" relief for a single "£10 manor" would be the usual (from BotW) "£10 if you're a knight and £5 per knight you owe if you have vassals of your own", so in the case you're asking about, £10.
But, as BotW says, relief is at the discretion of the Lord from whom the land is held, and if he doesn't like you, or your father did something to tick him off, or he just wants to hand it over to another favourite, or bring it back into his demesne, the Lord (King, in the case of directly held manors) can set relief at whatever level he thinks an appropriate height of hurdle to be jumped. 'Course, if he does that a lot, his other Vassals are going to get a bit jittery.

Later in the campaign the relief is set
Not during Uther's rule


BotW sets a level of £100 when a fief held from the King switches to per Baronum holding

What page is that on?

In real life, there were smallholders of a single knight's fee that held directly from the King. Legally and technically they were considered barons. I have read of one case where even though the landholder didn't have the perks or title of a baron, he was forced to pay 100 marks relief for his estate as if it were a barony, versus the customary 5 pounds for a single knight's fee because he was a tenant-in-chief.
How would you handle this situation in BotW/BotE terms?

Unless it got edited out, BoW specifically states that KAP uses the term Baron for the Tenants-in-chief

A quick search for Chief in BoW's pdf has the majority of references to T-i-C using the term for anyone who holds land directly from the King. The glossary entry for Baron and text at the beginning of page 17 conflate/equate the terms though. The definition of Vavasour as a "Vassal-of-a-Vassal" distinctly says that holding land from the King is the factor which defines a T-i-C. I think it could be read either way, depending on where you felt the text was meant to be specific, or which bit of the book you dipped into.





In actual mechanics, I'd say the "standard" relief for a single "£10 manor" would be the usual (from BotW) "£10 if you're a knight and £5 per knight you owe if you have vassals of your own", so in the case you're asking about, £10.
But, as BotW says, relief is at the discretion of the Lord from whom the land is held, and if he doesn't like you, or your father did something to tick him off, or he just wants to hand it over to another favourite, or bring it back into his demesne, the Lord (King, in the case of directly held manors) can set relief at whatever level he thinks an appropriate height of hurdle to be jumped. 'Course, if he does that a lot, his other Vassals are going to get a bit jittery.

Later in the campaign the relief is set
Not during Uther's rule

p29 of BotW explicitly says: "King Uther’s standard is that a knight pays £10, and a nobleman pays £5 per knight that he is obliged to supply to the king." Do you mean that later in the campaign, that standard becomes universally applied at all levels, whereas in the early phases it's just Uther's default, subject to the King's whim and not binding on lesser mortals?




BotW sets a level of £100 when a fief held from the King switches to per Baronum holding

What page is that on?

p17: "...Tenants-in-chief whose holdings are less than £100 are not barons. They hold their land by knightservice, not per baronium (see Book of the Estate for more about these lesser Lords)...."

In real life, there were smallholders of a single knight's fee that held directly from the King. Legally and technically they were considered barons. I have read of one case where even though the landholder didn't have the perks or title of a baron, he was forced to pay 100 marks relief for his estate as if it were a barony, versus the customary 5 pounds for a single knight's fee because he was a tenant-in-chief.
How would you handle this situation in BotW/BotE terms?

Unless it got edited out, BoW specifically states that KAP uses the term Baron for the Tenants-in-chief

A quick search for Chief in BoW's pdf has the majority of references to T-i-C using the term for anyone who holds land directly from the King.

Yes, that is because they are Tenants-in-chief
They hold land from the king


The glossary entry for Baron and text at the beginning of page 17 conflate/equate the terms though.

the barons are tenants-in-chief, and also Warlords and upper nobility, called barons
This is a change from the Middle AGes usage which made the t-i-c and baron to be synonyms
Many medieval terms have necessarily been whittled down to narrow their definition

The definition of Vavasour as a "Vassal-of-a-Vassal" distinctly says that holding land from the King is the factor which defines a T-i-C. I think it could be read either way, depending on where you felt the text was meant to be specific, or which bit of the book you dipped into.




I hope this clarifies it






In actual mechanics, I'd say the "standard" relief for a single "£10 manor" would be the usual (from BotW) "£10 if you're a knight and £5 per knight you owe if you have vassals of your own", so in the case you're asking about, £10.
But, as BotW says, relief is at the discretion of the Lord from whom the land is held, and if he doesn't like you, or your father did something to tick him off, or he just wants to hand it over to another favourite, or bring it back into his demesne, the Lord (King, in the case of directly held manors) can set relief at whatever level he thinks an appropriate height of hurdle to be jumped. 'Course, if he does that a lot, his other Vassals are going to get a bit jittery.

Later in the campaign the relief is set
Not during Uther's rule

p29 of BotW explicitly says: "King Uther’s standard is that a knight pays £10, and a nobleman pays £5 per knight that he is obliged to supply to the king."

Yes, that is the "standard"
Not a fixed standard, but the usual amount that the king requires


Do you mean that later in the campaign, that standard becomes universally applied at all levels, whereas in the early phases it's just Uther's default, subject to the King's whim and not binding on lesser mortals?


Yes, that is correct


BotW sets a level of £100 when a fief held from the King switches to per Baronum holding

What page is that on?

p17: "...Tenants-in-chief whose holdings are less than £100 are not barons. They hold their land by knightservice, not per baronium (see Book of the Estate for more about these lesser Lords)...."

thank you