I've been reading over the battle rules in KAP5, and its pretty complex. I decided to make a topic for all my questions on Battle mechanics.

Question 1: For the Battle Enemy Tables, is there any way to derive hitpoints for the enemies in the tables? I know you only fight the enemy for one Melee Round, but have HP and Armor would give depth to the combat. (eg. A player knight fights an Ordinary Knight one round and lands a decent strike. Does the enemy die? Get knocked down?) I know this isn't that important, but it seems like a worth-while idea to give these guys some HP and Armor. So the question is: How do you handle wounds/HP with enemies in the Battle system?

I'll keep posting questions involving the Battle system as they come to me.

Question 1: For the Battle Enemy Tables, is there any way to derive hitpoints for the enemies in the tables? I know you only fight the enemy for one Melee Round, but have HP and Armor would give depth to the combat. (eg. A player knight fights an Ordinary Knight one round and lands a decent strike. Does the enemy die? Get knocked down?) I know this isn't that important, but it seems like a worth-while idea to give these guys some HP and Armor. So the question is: How do you handle wounds/HP with enemies in the Battle system?


In our group we assume a crit kills the opponent, a normal hit has no effect. In a battle, your player knights aren't stopping to see if they wounded or knocked down an enemy, UNLESS they opt for extended combat rounds (pg 30). If you as a GM stop to calculate this (with armor/hp figures) during a battle, it will seem interminable! However, if you must, the enemy tables in the Book of Armies lists armor and MW (CON)...you could just double the CON for hit points, or if you've really got a lot of time on your hands, roll the SIZ based on cultural stats listed in Book of Knights and Ladies, and use that to come up with a HP total. But seriously, the only time you need to know is in extended rounds, and then I'd just double CON for a HP figure.

Suzanne

You can find more detailed stats in the book, so just note them down and flex them depending on experience.

Else do what I do and make it up, if they do a crit or a load of dmg give them some gruesome description ;D

I ran my first actual battle tonight, and all in all it went fairly well. It was the Battle of Mearcred Creek in the GPC. Some small things crept up in our play-through.

Issue 1: In one melee round, a PK was knocked down (while on foot) by an enemy. Seeing no clear way how to handle a knockdown with a single round, I reasoned that in the next round, the next enemy he fought would get the +5/-5 reflexive modifier against him as the PK tried to stand. Is this how you handle knockdowns to PKs in a battle? What if the PK's unit had to retreat or else disengage, my reasoning is that that PK would be left behind and considered "alone". Tell me what you think.

Issue 2: During the Unit Battle Roll, there isn't a table for MvA (Mounted vs. Afoot). There is only a balanced table (eg. AvA/MvM) and an AvM table.
What happens if the PKs are mounted versus an unmounted foe (aka MvA)? There is no table to consider this. While the AvM table is favored towards the enemy, shouldn't there be a table favored towards their unit is mounted and the enemy isn't? I could just be misunderstanding this or missing something completely. Fill me in.

Issue 3: My understanding is that a unit is disengaged after every Melee round, and the Unit Battle Roll determines if they are forcibly engaged or have other options (including staying disengaged). Is this right?

Issue 4: What if some soldiers/knights in a unit are mounted and some have been unhorsed? Do they count as Mounted or Afoot for the Unit Battle Roll?


Here's an idea for someone who has time on their hands and who is a veteran of this battle system: Could someone draw out an entire sample battle, simulating all the steps? Maybe just use the Battle of Mearcred Creek as an example. The skirmish example Greg put in the skirmish section of KAP was really helpful, but there is no similar sampling for a Battle. If not an entire battle, maybe one or two sample rounds. I know this would be a great help for Pendragon noobs like me ;D.

Thanks. Hope to hear what you think!

Issue 1.

Remember the combat rounds are over an extended amount of time and not a normal melee round, so he would have enough time to get up and be back on his feet so he wouldn't suffer a modifier.

I believe rules say he has to make an awareness roll to catch up with his unit before the next melee else he's alone.

Also he may well have to find a horse again I believe there are rules for that.

Bear in mind though he may be stuck and surrounded by enemies and held for ransom, or just hacked to death!!

Issue 2.

If you look under the M v Afoot it mentions that +5/-5 modifier to if it says AvM or MvA makes no difference, if you?re on foot and your opponent is mounted -5. If your mounted and the opponent is on foot +5.

Issue 3. Yeah pretty much.

Issue 4. Hmm not sure need book.

Hope this helps a bit, will check me book.

BigSteveUK

Just to add my two cents on Issue 3: I believe a unit is not disengaged after each round or else it could potentially charge each round. After the first charge, knights are considered still engaged each round until they pull or fall back or find a lull in the battle.

Issue 1.

Remember the combat rounds are over an extended amount of time and not a normal melee round, so he would have enough time to get up and be back on his feet so he wouldn't suffer a modifier.


Hmm... I'm not sure if this makes sense - to waive the modifier completely. Personally, I think a PK getting knocked down in a Battle should be just as harsh as in a Skirmish or other combat situation. I think getting knocked down should be any combatant's worst nightmare. You are so vulnerable while on the ground - especially in Battles, where several enemies could be deathly close to you as you fall.

The only other way I've thought of handling this is that the enemy gets an immediate attack against the PK they knocked down, this time with the +5/-5 mod.

This is obviously a tough issue, I look forward to more input!



Just to add my two cents on Issue 3: I believe a unit is not disengaged after each round or else it could potentially charge each round. After the first charge, knights are considered still engaged each round until they pull or fall back or find a lull in the battle.


So why does the book say that with a successful Unit Battle Roll done each Melee round, that a unit may remain disengaged, or engage an enemy, etc? I agree with you on some level though: It does seem like a unit must stay engaged, but the book seems to suggest otherwise...

Hope someone can help out more with Issue 3, the book doesn't quite make it clear for me :(.

Thanks for you two's help so far.

Issacheee is correct. You are engaged after the first charge even if u win. To disengage u must spend a round to withdraw. If successful you can the charge again. actually every round u are engaged unless u withdraw or specifically disengage. I think maybe we are all on the same page here but using different terminology perhaps. Also issue 1: U can make a squire roll on the round u were knocked down, i believe, to see if he rescues you, which means he gives u his mount or u double up with penalties. If that fails u begin the next round alone, on foot, and basically screwed. U have to make ur own battle roll as your own commander, and u do so at a -10. It is not good stuff. we have lost many good knights this way.

It says in the book that Engaged units have two options: Fight (duh) and Flight. However, the wording in the section seems to suggest that only lone knights have the option of Flight:



KAP: 5th edition, page 211 - The underlining is my own.
ii. Flight
While engaged, lone knights may choose to flee rather than fight against bad odds. Although flight is dangerous, it may be the best thing when opposed by great odds.
Fleeing in battle is much evading an opponent in melee: To flee, a knight or unit commander must attempt a DEX roll (if on foot and fighting other afoot) or a Hosemanship roll (if mounted) opposed to the enemy's weapon skill.


This seems very ambiguous. Hopefully Greg can stop by and help clear this whole thing up!

It says in the book that Engaged units have two options: Fight (duh) and Flight. However, the wording in the section seems to suggest that only lone knights have the option of Flight:



KAP: 5th edition, page 211 - The underlining is my own.
ii. Flight
While engaged, lone knights may choose to flee rather than fight against bad odds. Although flight is dangerous, it may be the best thing when opposed by great odds.
Fleeing in battle is much evading an opponent in melee: To flee, a knight or unit commander must attempt a DEX roll (if on foot and fighting other afoot) or a Hosemanship roll (if mounted) opposed to the enemy's weapon skill.


This seems very ambiguous. Hopefully Greg can stop by and help clear this whole thing up!


Well, battle using the Book of Battle is MUCH different than what was written in KAP5. Briefly, if a unit or knight chooses not to fight, they can defend (Defend, Defend vs Charge, Defend vs Two Opponents) or attempt to withdraw from the field using Withdraw (an orderly retreat that gives you +10 to your combat skills and can result in your unit being Disengaged the next round), or Run Away, which is what the "fleeing in battle" mentioned in KAP5 becomes: you "break off combat at any cost and flee. This is not combat but flight. Use the Player's Horsemanship skill versus the skill of the enemy unit, or if [the player knight] is on foot, DEX versus Intensity." (However, since BoB is still in beta, it doesn't say whether that's Core Intensity or Unit Intensity, although I favor the latter.) You'll move back a zone or two using Run Away, and if you're lucky remain an ordered unit.

Or, the Core Intensity for the battle can reach 40, in which case your side Routs and it's Game Over, Man! There're also a couple other things such as Remove (for units out of combat) and maneuvers that result in Broken units...but basically it's Attack, Defend, Withdraw, Run Away.

Suzanne

Issue 1: In one melee round, a PK was knocked down (while on foot) by an enemy. Seeing no clear way how to handle a knockdown with a single round, I reasoned that in the next round, the next enemy he fought would get the +5/-5 reflexive modifier against him as the PK tried to stand. Is this how you handle knockdowns to PKs in a battle? What if the PK's unit had to retreat or else disengage, my reasoning is that that PK would be left behind and considered "alone". Tell me what you think.


Just what I would have done.


Issue 2: During the Unit Battle Roll, there isn't a table for MvA (Mounted vs. Afoot). There is only a balanced table (eg. AvA/MvM) and an AvM table.
What happens if the PKs are mounted versus an unmounted foe (aka MvA)? There is no table to consider this. While the AvM table is favored towards the enemy, shouldn't there be a table favored towards their unit is mounted and the enemy isn't? I could just be misunderstanding this or missing something completely. Fill me in.


Enemy units fighting mounted opponents get a -5 mod for being on foot, unless they have one of those nifty great weapons (eg, great lance). Not enough caffeine to get the rest of the question; sorry.


Issue 3: My understanding is that a unit is disengaged after every Melee round, and the Unit Battle Roll determines if they are forcibly engaged or have other options (including staying disengaged). Is this right?


No; the unit remains engaged until they actively Disengage (through a successful Withdrawal maneuver).


Issue 4: What if some soldiers/knights in a unit are mounted and some have been unhorsed? Do they count as Mounted or Afoot for the Unit Battle Roll?

Anyone who is unhorsed is afoot (unless they make a successful Squire roll and can be remounted) and Alone for the next round: they make their own Battle roll at -10. Ouch! Hope your friends come find you.

[quote]Here's an idea for someone who has time on their hands and who is a veteran of this battle system: Could someone draw out an entire sample battle, simulating all the steps? Maybe just use the Battle of Mearcred Creek as an example. The skirmish example Greg put in the skirmish section of KAP was really helpful, but there is no similar sampling for a Battle. If not an entire battle, maybe one or two sample rounds. I know this would be a great help for Pendragon noobs like me ;D.


Hey Zev, that's still in the works, right?

Suzanne

Issue 5: In the core rulebook, it also says that after a unit commander makes the Unit Battle Roll -- and providing the unit is disengaged -- EACH MEMBER of that unit can take separate actions.

Whaaaat... So your unit commander can yell, "CHARGE!" and then half the guys stay back to put on new armor. Or vice versa: You're unit commander makes an order to help the wounded and you charge in alone against an entire unit ???

This doesn't seem accurate/possible on the battlefield.

More on Issue 3: Everyone is talking about some "Withdraw" maneuver while being Engaged. I can't for the life of me find this in KAP. Can someone enlighten me please.



Anyone who is unhorsed is afoot (unless they make a successful Squire roll and can be remounted) and Alone for the next round: they make their own Battle roll at -10. Ouch! Hope your friends come find you.


1: Does the Squire bring you your 2nd or 3rd horse, or just get you back on your charger?
2: So anytime you are unhorsed, you are alone next round?

And thanks to everyone helping me out! I've gotten an enormous amount of help since I joined this forum!

Part of the confusion stems from the fact that you and they are talking from two different books. You are quoting the KAP 5 rule book. They are citing the new Book of Battle, which has an ALL NEW way of dooing battle, and will be out sometime this year.
As I have seen and read the new book of battle, I am very much in favour of using that, instead of the rules in KAP5, because the new rules are far more elegant and playable.
So next time you ask the questions, please specify that you are quoting from, and asking questions about the KAP 5 rules, and not about the book of battle. That will prevent all sorts of misunderstanding.
And, as I don not have my books here, I also can not answer the questions. Sorry about that.

:-[

So if everyone is using the new BoB rules... How can I find them and use them if the book isn't out? In other words, where did everyone get to see the new book before publish?

Well, some people had playtest copies in varies stages of completion. And I know that a short summary of the rules was given to all playtesters at several conventions, where Greg did a playtest round.
But apart from that I do not know.

Louis

So if everyone is using the new BoB rules... How can I find them and use them if the book isn't out? In other words, where did everyone get to see the new book before publish?


A new section has just been added to the forum for news and updates from Greg - I expect that there will some announcements about the status of the Book of Battle and other publications soon.

Its here: http://www.gspendragon.com/roundtable/index.php?board=13.0

Greetings everyone!

At the moment I am busy re-reading all my Pendragon material to set up a new...well...my first round in the months to come. And while I skipped through the forum, I cannot help but always reading of this BoB. I got curious and tried the link, but it seems to be broken. Is this intended? Is it back to the top-secret-status again?^^

Greetings everyone!

At the moment I am busy re-reading all my Pendragon material to set up a new...well...my first round in the months to come. And while I skipped through the forum, I cannot help but always reading of this BoB. I got curious and tried the link, but it seems to be broken. Is this intended? Is it back to the top-secret-status again?^^


Please see:
http://www.gspendragon.com/roundtable/index.php?topic=278.0

--Greg

Greetings everyone!

At the moment I am busy re-reading all my Pendragon material to set up a new...well...my first round in the months to come. And while I skipped through the forum, I cannot help but always reading of this BoB. I got curious and tried the link, but it seems to be broken. Is this intended? Is it back to the top-secret-status again?^^


Oophs... when the forum moved I clearly overlooked editing this link. Do let me know if you spot any more! I'll go back and change the original post so that it is correct.