I am running a game set during the Uther time period (485). Recently, my group decided to adventure in Cambria. After completing a few quests they were informed that currently the self styled Irish King of Gomeret (an invader) is acting aggressively towards his neighbors and that a Lord by the name of Cunedda Wledig (Maelgwn Hir ap Cadwallon is Cunedda's great grandson) leading a large group of Votadini warriors (fudged the actual dates for Cunedda and who asked for his assistance) in resistance to this King with at least the tacit blessing of the King of Cameliard, King Nanteleod, and to a lesser extent Uther (Uther has remained quiet on the subject). King Pellinore of Norgales resists Gomeret raids but has neither condoned or condemned Cunedda's actions.

It is strongly suspected that the King of Gomeret is a Sorcerer but the truth of this is accusation is unconfirmed as so far the only proof of his sorcery is his inhuman prowess and resistance to injury on the field of battle.

Two PKs are landed knights and sworn to the Duke of Lindsey. Another PK is sworn to one of the two other PKs. They have it in their head that if they are the ones who defeat this evil King that one or more of them will have some claim to the throne of Gomeret. I have stated that the previous royal line was wiped out (if you ignore any claim someone related to the deceased Vortigern might have) and many of the previous tribal/noble families leadership have been wiped out, or subjugated.

Assuming the players in the end are the ones to defeat the Irish King of Gomeret on the field of battle, otherwise contribute warriors and leadership to the fight, and for some reason Cunedda dies during the fight would they have any claim to the throne of Gomeret? Or would the Duke of Lindsey be able to make a claim? Or Uther?

Just looking for opinions because I have a group of ambitious players.

(Your Pendragon May Vary: Apart from the fact that Pellinore is a King of Gomeret and the overlord of Norgales and Cheshire, and not the King of Norgales, and that Cunedda arrives to Cambria a generation earlier... That, by the way, is a mistake in GPC, I forget what page it was mentioned on. Not that it matters for you, since you are shifting the year & the situation around in any case.)

Given that the three PKs are mere vassal knights (and one of them not even that), they will not be able to contribute nearly the numbers of warriors that the Votadini would. Remember that Cunedda has eight sons (well, at least in the legends), so he has plenty of heirs to pick up where he left off. Why would they follow one of these foreign knights rather than claim the throne for themselves?

Taking over a kingdom is simply not that easy, unless you have the resources to do it yourself. The PKs best bet, actually, would be to try and marry into the family of Cunedda and hope that in the conquest, they will end up holding a commote or something like that as thanks from Cunedda for killing the King of Gomeret. They simply do not have the powerbase to aspire to a kingship yet. Furthermore, this is 485 and you just started? If the PKs are the default 21-year old novice knights, then they even lack the personal Glory and reputation and auctoritas and probably even the skills to distinguish themselves from other knights. Indeed, they'd be playing catch-up to knights a decade or two their seniors. To put it in modern term, it is like a fresh lawyer graduate aspiring to become the president of USA right away. It is simply not happening. Even if they would be able to have some claim due to having killed the previous claimant, there would be a long list of people (starting with Cunedda & his sons) who think they are a better claimant than one of the PKs, and they probably have more muscle behind them, too. At the very best, expect rounds of 'civil wars' between the victors & any locals who figure they have a shot. Now, if after fighting off claimants for the next decade or so and the PKs are still alive and in possession of the throne, then they have probably established that yes, they are able to make their claim stick, accept it or die. I seriously, seriously doubt that three 21-year old knights with a few manors between them could do that, though.

The only way they could get the manpower to conceivably try to take Gomeret down on their own would be to get the Duke of Lindsey to basically send his own personal army with them (and even then, it would be touch and go, although with the Votadini help, I can see it happening). However, if it is the Duke of Lindsey's army doing the conquering, the very best deal the PKs could expect, if they had been leading the said army, would be to rule Gomeret as vassals to the Duke of Lindsey. And that is even assuming that THEY would be placed in command over the more experienced, trustworthy, and less openly ambitious knights (see previous paragraph).

If this is the level of play that your players, and presumably you as the GM, wish to be playing in, might I suggest starting the PKs off as Barons of Logres themselves? That way, the three of them could probably gather something like a 100 knights, and have a fighting chance of taking Gomeret down between them.

Personally, I'd talk to the players and explain to them that there is no chance whatsoever. That they will need to work on their powerbase and their own reputation and skills. Frankly, their best bet would be to be assigned in one of the Duke of Lindsey's outlying castles and take it over during the Anarchy and then expand aggressively during the first year, while everyone is reeling. If that is the game that you and your players like better, then one way to do it would be to fast-forward through the Uther period, like a couple of years per session, and a few sessions down the road, their knights are now 31, hopefully with some significant Glory and higher skills, and thanks to the connivance of the GM, one of them is assigned as a castellan in St Peter (which might be a bit too close for comfort to Lindsey, but might work) or Magoans (bit too close to Sussex and getting squeezed soon enough by Wessex too) or simply some third castle that the GM finds nicely located (Wuerensis/Lambor region is nicely chaotic, and away from the Saxon intrusions).

In the end, though, it is your campaign. If you want them to seize the throne of Gomeret by cinematic derring-do, feel free. Just because it would never happen in my campaign is no reason that it couldn't happen in yours. I'd be very very tempted to ask them to play older knights, though, adding like 10+ years of previous experience (Training & Practice in Winter Phase) and give them like 2000 Extra Glory and some extra manors, too. Just to make it at least a tad more plausible for me.

Thanks for the reply Morien.

To answer you question of whether the characters just started in 485 the answer is no. We are using the Book of Uther Expansion and started in 480. The characters spent most of their early years as knights Errant independently adventuring and participating as mercenary knights in the various conflicts. They have on occasion pooled their excess funds to higher mercenaries and make minor but successful raids against Saxons (specifically Nohaut ). They have performed well in these battles and two of the players have made it a priority to improve their Battle skills. In 483 they accepted positions with the Duke of Lindsey and since two of the Knights have been allowed to marry heiresses because of services on the field of Battle in service to the Duke of Lindsey. At this point in the game each of the Knights has not an inconsiderable amount of Glory and two of them have battle skills (due to pumping Glory into the skill, and a one or two lucky winter phase rolls) either at or close to 20. Using the statistics and skills provided for Uther (Battle 19), Octa (Battle 19), and a few of the Counts and Dukes of Logress as examples their abilities to lead troops into battle are on par with men many years their senior.

As for Pellinores position I was unaware he held quite so much land. I haven't been able to find a clear timeline so tried to piece one together. For some reason I assumed Ryons had presence in North East Cambria and South West Cumbria. All I was able to find on Pellinore in the GPC was that he was King of Norgales before giving it up to hunt the Questing Beast. As for Cunedda I know that he was suppose to arrive in northern Wales possibly during Vortigern's rule but I thought that Cunneda's story was interesting and might provide an interesting hook since my players like war. That said I have made it clear that my Cunedda is an old if still vigorous man with fully grown sons many of whom are older then the player character's knights. Several of these even have sons of their own. I figure in the chaos that will come to this area just before and during the anarchy it is entirely possible that by the end of these events a young Maelgwn will be ready to be crowned by King Nanteleod.

All of that said I do tend to agree that it is unlikely Cunedda and his heirs would be willing to surrender the throne to the player characters unless they had the backing of another major player like the Duke of Lindsey. However, if the Duke of Lindsey suddenly possessed Gomeret then I imagine that would further sour his already stressed relationship with Uther. Especially if the Duke worked it so Cunedda or his heir swore loyalty to him along with their Votadini warriors.

(You might be interested in this thread: http://nocturnalmediaforum.com/iecarus/forum/showthread.php?2261-Skills-and-Glory-%28especially-NPCs%29 )

Yes, having Battle around 20 would definitely help in qualifying for the leadership role, but they still lack the manpower and status. So they have a definite uphill struggle. However, if leading a band of ruffians in an extended civil war type scenario in the mountains and forests of northeastern Cambria, they are free to try their luck. They'd pretty much have to make sure that Cunedda dies, and if they are smart, get his sons to fight against one another for the throne of Gomeret. Wait them to waste their forces against one another, and then sweep in with fresh troops and hopefully the backing of the Duke of Lindsey, too. Or, even better, both Duke of Lindsey and King Uther (King of Gomeret gets a vote to select the new High King, after all...).

Yes, Cunedda should have arrived during Vortigern's time in the 'official' timeline. Feel free to do what you want, though.

As for Pellinore, I find him personally extremely frustrating, since I find that his current storyline doesn't support his sons very well: his legitimate sons are born AFTER he vanishes from his kingdom. At what point does he have time to start a family??? Percivale bothers me much less, since he is a bastard:
http://nocturnalmediaforum.com/iecarus/forum/showthread.php?2180-King-Pellinore-s-Age-amp-Death-and-Other-De-Gales-Ages&highlight=Pellinore
As for Pellinore's lands, it is quite annoying the way GPC uses Gomeret and Norgales sometimes interchangeably. He is Pellinore of the Isles, though, which is Anglesey and the smaller islands around it. I think he is explicitly stated to be King of Gomeret in GPC's Places of Importance in Britain 485, and that Gomeret rules over Norgales and Cheshire. (That section is not always correct, though. For instance, it references Duke Galeholt in 485 as the ruler of the Long Isle, but in Year 521, we have Duke Galeholt's biography, which clearly contradicts this.)

As for Ryons, since we don't hear anything about him until 510, while we hear much about the Three Cadlews after Pellinore vanishes, I would personally place Ryons during the Anarchy. I think he is mentioned as a King of Norgales, but GPC also puts him into the Perilous Forest in 510.

Don't get me wrong, GPC is a wonderful tome. But the contradictions in it drive me frigging nuts at times.

EDIT:

GPC, p. 26:
"Gomeret. A kingdom of northern
Gales including Isles, Norgales, Snodonia,
and nearby hill tribes. The ruler is King
Pellinore."

GPC, p. 138:
"See the Pendragon core book, page 199, for Pel-
linore’s stats around age 33. He is in his 50s now,"

Since KAP 5.1 is set to 485, this indicates that Pellinore would have been born in 452. Which means that since it is 'now' 512, he should be 60.