Anyone have any thoughts on marching (or riding order) in a column of knights? My players are mounting a small expedition of seven knights to investigate some troubling goings on in the western part of Salisbury. The Marshal of Salisbury has insisted that his son lead the expedition, since he is the castellan of Vagon now and the trouble is in Vagon hundred. The knight with the highest Glory )one of my players) acceded to his wishes.

So my question is, should this knight ride at the front of the column? It seems a little silly to be slavish to the precedence of rank by Glory in such cases, and in this case Elad's son has less Glory than the other knights on the expedition including my two PKs. But then again he was assigned the command. So should he lead from the front?

Should I make this decision purely upon the desires of the "leader" (and thus make it whatever I want it to be for the sake of the story) or is there some custom, expectation, adventuring or protocol that would come into play here? What would you do?


Thanks,


T.

So should he lead from the front?

With a small group like this, my answer would be: "Yes." The spot in the front gives him all the advantages: He can see the terrain in front rather than a horse's behind, he is easily able to guide the group where and how fast to go and his men can see what he is doing and follow. Also, he gets the least amount of dust, if it is a dirt road. Finally, it is the position of prestige. There are no reasons for him to hide himself in the middle of the knights and many reasons not to.

Now, if it were an actual army, things shift a bit. The usual place for the overall leader was leading the main force, with the vanguard given to a favored (or simply the touchiest) nobleman. Even then, you'd have outriders in front, but the leader would be at the front of that part of the marching column usually, for all the above reasons.

So, yeah, the leader in front, likely the highest Glory knight at his side (as befits the Glory and also because he is probably the second in command and an experienced leader by his own right). Depending on the youngster, he might be keen to pick the brain of the famous knight, or he might be feeling a bit inadequate by comparison and feel that he is constantly being evaluated and found wanting, which might lead to resentment. Just two options out of many, of course, and you know best how to play the lad. :)

Great Answer, Morien, thanks. It touched on all the things that were rolling around in my head.


Best,


T.

IMHO
I would use the following rules.
When a group of knights travel they will adhere first to rank. An officer of a Baron rides in front of the vassals, even if his vassals have a higher glory. A Baron would ride in front of him. But a King would ride in front of him again, etc.
If there is an appointed leader he rides in front. In your case a leader was appointed so he rides in front. While in your case the Marshal declared who would be leader, the group of knights could also appoint one themselves. Although this is in general the highest in glory in my own group they are very pragmatic in this. So they appoint the best hunter if they go on a hunt, but will appoint the best battle leader when they go of to war.
Then if there is no clear leader the highest in glory takes the lead.

Of course when an army rides of this is usually a whole other affair and you would have the different battalions (vanguard, main, rearguard). In each case a battalion will be led by someone, and as Morien says, the main is usually led by the army leader. Of course then there are the outriders as well.

Thanks, cornelius, great stuff.


Best,


T.

With a small group like this, my answer would be: "Yes." The spot in the front gives him all the advantages:

I would generally agree with this and other comments. However, I think there is always the possibility that the leader of the expedition would place several of his own knights in front as guards. Since they are his men, they are extensions of himself. He is still "in front".

I have to check when I get home, but I have a reference to "marching order" for late medieval households when traveling around. The situation is different because it does not refer to military expeditions. However, as I remember, the lord and lady generally traveled in the middle because various servants were sent ahead to get things ready for their arrival. This set up seems to describe multiple groups more than one main column however. So, it is more akin to an army with outriders than a single small patrol column.

NT

I would generally agree with this and other comments. However, I think there is always the possibility that the leader of the expedition would place several of his own knights in front as guards. Since they are his men, they are extensions of himself. He is still "in front".


This particular case was 7 knights, so there are no 'several of his own knights' to put in front, though. :)

Were it a Lord's Progress with the main body of the Lady, servants, foot soldiers, carts, etc, then yes, I fully concur. The Lord would ride with the main group, send a bunch of servants ahead to prepare the next night's stopping point, and probably a few knights out in front (as outriders) to make sure that the road of clear of bandits or other obstructions (like peasants).

I have to check when I get home, but I have a reference to "marching order" for late medieval households when traveling around.


I would love to see that. Please post it here if you find it!


T.

I would love to see that. Please post it here if you find it!

From: The Great Household in the Late Middle Ages, C.M. Woolgar

The riding or foreign household of the Earl of Northumberland 1511

(1) Preceding Party of five to take up lodgings:
To act as harbingers for servants: 1 yeoman usher fo the chamber, 1 clerk of the kitchen, 1 youeman usher of the hall,
To keep the lord's chamber: 1 groom of the chamber, 1 yeoman or groom cook.

(2) Preceding party with the lord's luggage

1 yeoman porter for keeping the gates, 1 groom sumpterman with the luggage, esp for the bed, 1 yeoman sumpterman with the coffers, gentlemen servants to deal with the luggage

(3) Party preceding the lord

1 yeoman cellar with th ecup, marshals of the hall, 1 offercer of arms, all other gentlemen, 1 gentlemen usher of the chamber, 1 swer for the lord, 1 carver for the lord, 1 cupbearer for the lord, 1 chaplain for the lord

(4) The lord and his following

Yeoman of the robes, yeoman of the horse, yeoman of the chamber, yeoman of the pantry, yeoman of the buttery, yeoman waiters, groom of the chamber, groom of the ewrey, clerk of the signet, clerk of the foreign expenses, groom of the wardrobe, groom of the stirrup

All other yeoman ride behind the lord.


NT

That's a great find, Eothar, thanks!

At some point I'll try to gather this into a short essay about traveling in KAP (don't know when, exactly, as I've got a pretty full plate just now). There are at several different situations I see: small parties of adventuring knights (PKs doing PK stuff), a small household on the move (like a knight), a lesser baron on his progress, a great baron on his progress, a king on his progress and an army on the march. Maybe throw in a bishop and his entourage for good measure. I'm generally interested in how the columns are ordered; how many "files" are typical in a column; when outriders are used; how many people, horses and carts are in the train; what the carts are laden with; how fast they travel, etc. Just "typical" scenarios that GMs can use as a default and modify as needed. These kinds of details are useful for understanding "how things work" — even though I wouldn't want to bog down play with detailed descriptions.


T.

Maybe throw in a bishop and his entourage for good measure.

Probably looks a lot like an equivalent baron, just with more ecclesiastical minions than the baron would have.



I'm generally interested in how the columns are ordered; how many "files" are typical in a column; when outriders are used; how many people, horses and carts are in the train; what the carts are laden with; how fast they travel, etc.


You of course know the answers to many of these questions already, but I'll just toss in my couple of denarii...

Eothar's post would be a good one to look at, to start with. One thing that needs to be kept in mind is that it is from the early 1500s, so the Wars of the Roses had ended and the realm was in peace. So you wouldn't have robber knights, Saxon raiders and such to deal with. The look & composition of such a traveling party will change with the Periods, of course. I would expect that during the Early Phase, the difference between an army and a Lord's Progress is that the latter has more non-combatants and ladies, and carry furniture with them, while the former would only do that after a victorious expedition (loot) and the 'ladies' would be of negotiable virtue.

The 'files' is determined by the width of the roads, one would expect. I think most would be one cart wide (with a bit of a shoulder to allow moving aside to let someone pass coming the other way), so something like two horsemen abreast is what I would be expecting in most cases.

Outriders would be used whenever a larger party can afford to send them. I would expect that to be the norm throughout KAP, even though the alertness of the outriders might be quite low during Tournament Period.

The numbers (of men, horses and carts) would depend on the status of the person traveling and the reason. During the Lord's Progress, he might carry almost all movables with him, from his bed to the dining table, especially if these are finely crafted examples. Definitely his silver plate and fine tapestries and such. What is the use of having them if you only see them for a couple of weeks per year and can't dazzle any visitors elsewhere? Some Lords even carried tiles and architectural decorations with them, panelling and such...

The speed of travel is easy, while they are using ox carts: 10 miles per day. With horse-drawn wagons that become available later, 15 miles on most roads, but up to 20 miles per day on good roads, if they push it (less comfortable to travel at a pace for both the passengers and the wagons, but doable).

That's a great find, Eothar, thanks!

T.

No problem. It is quite an interesting book, btw. One of the more interesting tidbits, I found, was the complete lack of any women in the households. Apart from the lady and a couple of handmaidens, even a great lady's household was entirely male. Sure there might be washer-women, but they lived in town and were not part of the household. The book covers the late middle ages, so I don't know if that is different from earlier periods or not.

The other tidbit I found interesting was the number of wagons the households kept. They did not keep enough to haul around all their goods. They kept a few for the main stuff, but either hired wagons or borrowed them from monasteries. Also, once at a castle, many of the horses would be sent to outlying manors to pasture and keep until the household decided to travel again. RE Wagons, this was in a more settled time, than say the Uther period. Since there was more of a cash economy, lords and ladies didn't necessary travel on a progress to all their holdings to eat their income, but they did move a bit between some major centers.


NT

Thanks, Morien. You're right — I did know the answers to many of these — but not all of them! Anyhoo, it would be nice to have an authoritative resource for this kind of thing. This is half a page — just a few paragraphs.


Best,


T.