Okay, so I am now three Battles deep (just finished the Battle of Lindsey in 490) and I really want to know if I'm doing something terribly wrong.

We've done three battles and the group has been following the same course of action: "The Enemy Gate is Down".

For example, Battle of Lindsey: Starting Army Intensity: 11.

First Charge: Unit Intensity -4. Loss. Unit Intact. Final Intensity 11. Move to Zone 5
Round 2: Unit Intensity 23. Opportunity (Gap in Line). Win. Final Intensity 13. Move to Zone 6.
Round 3: Unit Intensity 20. Push Deeper. Triumph. Final Intensity 6. Move to Zone 7.
Round 4: Unit Intensity 10. Attack Vs. Two. Triumph. Final Intensity 0. Move to Zone 8.
Round 5: Unit Intensity 3. Push Deeper. Triumph. Final Intensity 1. Move to Zone 9.
Round 6: Unit Intensity 6. Loot Camp. Triumph. Final Intensity -14. Stay in Zone 9.
Round 7: Unit Intensity -15. Withdraw. Triumph. Final Intensity -17. Move to Zone 8.
Round 8: Unit Intensity -17. Capture Octa's Banner. Triumph. End of Battle

I know that's a lot of Triumphs, but the group rolled well and spent a lot of time Inspired. So, can anyone see where I'm doing something wrong? Or Is this just how things are when the Lance Charge isn't an optimal strategy when people are doing equal or -1d damage under their Horses. Everyone ended up with around 1800+ Glory for the battle as well (with the x2 Decisive Win and x3 Huge Battle modifiers). Previous battles followed the same general approach as well. Thoughts?

Quick disclaimer: I haven't actually used BoB II in my own campaign, so my comments are mainly 'book-learning'.


First thing that comes to mind since you mentioned the PKs spending a lot of time being Inspired... Inspiration only lasts one Battle Round and you can only use each Passion once in a Battle. Have you been letting them to use Hate Saxons several times or let one time boost their skills for the whole Battle? That might explain those Triumphs, although part of the reason is that ties & mutual misses also count as wins (personally, I think we should count ties, too)... Anyway, if they are spending most of the battle with +15 to their combat skills (+10 from Inspired, +5 from Mounted), no wonder they are raking in the Glory!

Glory can become quite unbelievable, thanks to several multipliers boosting each other. I am sure there was another thread about Battle Glory here recently... (I am in the 'this is too much Glory' -camp, by the way.)

Another thing that sticks out to me is that the starting army intensity seems a bit low to me... I assume you gave Starting intensity -5 for Merlin and another -5 for the knights? I would have been tempted to give the Saxons some outnumbering bonus, though. They are supposed to have a huge army, although granted, it is not stated as a modifier in GPC. Anyway, with Starting intensity of 10 + 3d6 - 10 the battle does become a bit of a gimme as the Saxons practically start retreating straight away rather than a hard fought win, so no wonder the PKs do rather well, too.

Round 2: The unit commander critted his battle for them to get the Gap in the Line opportunity (lucky there, too). So this is not something that should happen in every battle.


I see your point, though. On a cursory reading, it seems that the best thing to do is to push through as quickly as possible to get out of the killing zone, and go and loot the enemy camp.

I see your point, though. On a cursory reading, it seems that the best thing to do is to push through as quickly as possible to get out of the killing zone, and go and loot the enemy camp.

In my experience, charging and withdrawing over and over is the best strategy. If you start a battle with a more even Intensity (say 20), you'll be rolling vs 30 or so in the second round and getting crushed. Withdraw and charge again tends to work better in those situations. Your battle is already fairly lopsided (at 11 the enemy is about to withdraw already). As such they are weak and it is easier to break through their lines.

That starting intensity is undoubtedly a major factor behind the success of breaking through, as you said, Eothar. Although I am still thinking that Inspired probably plays a big role in allowing so many Triumphs: +10 to skill has a major effect. If the Unit commander has it in Battle, they might be able to push through even when odds are more even.

I am still thinking that Inspired probably plays a big role in allowing so many Triumphs: +10 to skill has a major effect.

Of course. They both clearly matter. Intensity might matter more because it lasts the whole battle, but regardless if starting Intensity is 11 and you're inspired...you should easily win. If you can be inspired for that break through...that's a good tactic too.

NT

They are only using Passions once a Battle Round and I'm not allowing repeats. They have a passion for their own little tight-knit group and were rolling with their Lord, so they had some Loyalty Passions they could use. Beyond that, they were just careful with the times they used Passions and got good rolls besides (they even made the Prudent checks to keep their Hate Passions in line). I can say that this is also the battle that they realized that they should ALWAYS do extended melee when the majority of the group is inspired... they racked up TONS of glory from critting multiple rolls in extended melee. And they did it in three separate rounds.

I might have messed up the starting Intensity modifiers, but I started with a -20 in toto due to unit cohesion, merlin, and knights vs infantry. I'm trying to do this as close to RAW as I can get, so I'm not intentionally fudging Intensity numbers. This was my first time using the Excel sheet that another member here made, so I might have fat-fingered something, but I don't think so. The Intensity feels like it probably should have started higher. I know that other battles had much higher starting Intensities with the same results, though.

I just feel like the system is functional but lacks any real dynamic aspects... the 3d6-10 roll is meant to make it more dynamic but I think it does too little. For example, there are rules for what happens when an enemy sacks your camp, but no rules for how an enemy gets into your camp beyond "having an Army Intensity of 40 or more for two rounds"... I guess I could try to narratively make things more interesting, but mechanically the system feels half-way done, to me. I just can't put my finger on what's missing.

They are only using Passions once a Battle Round and I'm not allowing repeats. They have a passion for their own little tight-knit group and were rolling with their Lord, so they had some Loyalty Passions they could use. Beyond that, they were just careful with the times they used Passions and got good rolls besides (they even made the Prudent checks to keep their Hate Passions in line). I can say that this is also the battle that they realized that they should ALWAYS do extended melee when the majority of the group is inspired... they racked up TONS of glory from critting multiple rolls in extended melee. And they did it in three separate rounds.


Well, a couple of things (IMHO):
1) You'll only get to invoke your Loyalty when the Lord / Group is in actual danger. Just being in a battle is not enough, someone needs to be wounded, knocked off their horse, etc.
2) Extended melee is something that the GM chooses to happen, when the circumstances warrant it. It is not a 'bonus round' for the PKs to rack as much Glory as possible. Octa's banner is of course an extended melee, and if the liege/teammate got into trouble, that might be an extended melee, too. The camp could be a third option, but more optional. Anyway, my point is that it is the GM call, not 'we all got a Passion on, lets rack up some extra Glory' -license.

Also, if the PKs are in the liege's unit, then it is the liege who decides where to go. He sees a friend of his in trouble, he is going to go there rather than ride off towards the enemy camp. :)

Regarding Glory... It is a deliberate design choice by Greg that Battles give a buttload of Glory, but I still think getting 1000+ for a single battle is too much. An easy way to 'fix' that is to take out the Size multiplier, and instead just add a flat Glory bonus based on size for participation, same as the Unit Commanders get. So rather than 600 x 3 = 1800 that your PKs got, it would have been 600 + 60 (huge battle) x 2 (decisive victory) = 720. Much better, IMHO, and still reasonable: you get a lot of extra Glory for simply being at a bigger battle, but if you are a sexy shoeless god of war ('I left a trail of broken bodies in my wake'), that is enough to swamp the mere 'I was there', regardless of the battle size.

I'd be also curious to hear how much of that 1800 Glory was gained in extended melee, if you have the notes for it?



I might have messed up the starting Intensity modifiers, but I started with a -20 in toto due to unit cohesion, merlin, and knights vs infantry. I'm trying to do this as close to RAW as I can get, so I'm not intentionally fudging Intensity numbers. This was my first time using the Excel sheet that another member here made, so I might have fat-fingered something, but I don't think so. The Intensity feels like it probably should have started higher. I know that other battles had much higher starting Intensities with the same results, though.


It should be somewhat rarer, though... I think you got the Unit Intensity right for the first charge (or maybe you are missing Zone 4 +5 modifier?). Merlin & superior armor should only affect the Opening Army Intensity, you shouldn't count him again for the Unit Intensity (and I guess you didn't, since otherwise the numbers would be different).

Anyway, this would lead to an Opening Intensity of 10 + 3d6 -10, meaning that the Saxons basically start retreating straight away, which is bad. In keeping with the idea that this is supposed to be a tough fight, I would have ignored the Merlin Modifier and likely given the Saxons 2:1 outnumbering bonus, too, for a Starting Army Intensity of 20.



I just feel like the system is functional but lacks any real dynamic aspects... the 3d6-10 roll is meant to make it more dynamic but I think it does too little. For example, there are rules for what happens when an enemy sacks your camp, but no rules for how an enemy gets into your camp beyond "having an Army Intensity of 40 or more for two rounds"... I guess I could try to narratively make things more interesting, but mechanically the system feels half-way done, to me. I just can't put my finger on what's missing.

I think BoB II is explicit that it is looking at things from the PK perspective; it is not a battle simulator for the whole army. If you want to be doing that, an easy way would be to roll the Army commanders' Battles (with modifiers) in opposed resolution, and allow something special to happen if one of the crits/fumbles. On Partial Success, leave it to the dice, and on Failure, allow a mistake at some point that the opponent can use to their advantage? Like +5/-5 Intensity as they are pushed back or something.

Well, a couple of things (IMHO):
2) Extended melee is something that the GM chooses to happen, when the circumstances warrant it. It is not a 'bonus round' for the PKs to rack as much Glory as possible. Octa's banner is of course an extended melee, and if the liege/teammate got into trouble, that might be an extended melee, too. The camp could be a third option, but more optional. Anyway, my point is that it is the GM call, not 'we all got a Passion on, lets rack up some extra Glory' -license.
Not RAW (BoB, page 73), players determine if they do Extended Melee or not:

Extended Melee Rounds, or New Round?
The leader decides, after quick consultation with his men, if there is a need to extend the round, or whether to go to the next one. The Gamemaster does whichever they wish.



Regarding Glory... It is a deliberate design choice by Greg that Battles give a buttload of Glory, but I still think getting 1000+ for a single battle is too much. An easy way to 'fix' that is to take out the Size multiplier, and instead just add a flat Glory bonus based on size for participation, same as the Unit Commanders get. So rather than 600 x 3 = 1800 that your PKs got, it would have been 600 + 60 (huge battle) x 2 (decisive victory) = 720. Much better, IMHO, and still reasonable: you get a lot of extra Glory for simply being at a bigger battle, but if you are a sexy shoeless god of war ('I left a trail of broken bodies in my wake'), that is enough to swamp the mere 'I was there', regardless of the battle size.

I'd be also curious to hear how much of that 1800 Glory was gained in extended melee, if you have the notes for it?
The last two rounds had them all inspired and doing extended melee. One was to rally to Roderick who had fallen on hard times in my description of the battle, so as to get them out of the enemy camp, (and thus Loyalty-Lord was rolled) and then the second was to go after the banner of Octa where they all rallied together and used their group Loyalty Passion. In Round 7, they fought the Badder Berserkers that had roughed them up in the first round (the loss on the lance charge). This time, they smashed though 10 or so of them, so that's 25 or 50 Glory each time they attacked (depending on crits), so netting 50 to 100 Glory per PK (ends up being 300 to 600 Glory after the battle). When they fought for the banner, I ran it like the "Capture a Leader" extended melee in the BoB (page 78), but only as if it were a Battalion Commander (so only two phases, or 10 soldiers total). This netted them another 300 to 600 Glory, depending on rolls. So, those two rounds alone accounted for about 40% of the Glory. I know one PK had 2500 or so Glory from the battle due to good dice.



It should be somewhat rarer, though... I think you got the Unit Intensity right for the first charge (or maybe you are missing Zone 4 +5 modifier?). Merlin & superior armor should only affect the Opening Army Intensity, you shouldn't count him again for the Unit Intensity (and I guess you didn't, since otherwise the numbers would be different).

Anyway, this would lead to an Opening Intensity of 10 + 3d6 -10, meaning that the Saxons basically start retreating straight away, which is bad. In keeping with the idea that this is supposed to be a tough fight, I would have ignored the Merlin Modifier and likely given the Saxons 2:1 outnumbering bonus, too, for a Starting Army Intensity of 20.
I used the Modifiers from GPC for the starting Intensity. Started at 20, -5 for superior troops on Uther's side, -5 for mounted army, +5 for being outnumbered, total of -5. My Battle Events roll came up a -4, so the starting Intensity was 11. Octa's skill was higher than that, so we used Octa's skill -5 (for the Merlin bonus listed in GPC page 48), and Octa actually managed to squeeze out a win, so the Knights didn't get their First Charge bonus. They went up against the "20" result on the "Attacking Saxons" army (Badder Berserkers) and got wolloped but good (if one of the Knights hadn't tied, it would have been a Crush). No changes to Intensity, so it stayed 11. My Battle Events rolls were (in order), -5, 2, -3, -1, 3, 5, -1.... so that netted out to 0 overall (meaning that Battle Events didn't have much of an impact, really).



I think BoB II is explicit that it is looking at things from the PK perspective; it is not a battle simulator for the whole army. If you want to be doing that, an easy way would be to roll the Army commanders' Battles (with modifiers) in opposed resolution, and allow something special to happen if one of the crits/fumbles. On Partial Success, leave it to the dice, and on Failure, allow a mistake at some point that the opponent can use to their advantage? Like +5/-5 Intensity as they are pushed back or something.
Once more, I think the intention was for it to only apply to the PKs but there are so many rules for things that can't actually happen (enemies in your camp, for example), that is why I felt like it's incomplete. I may end up making Battle Events a result of Army Commander rolls rather than just a random number. That might make the Battle feel more dynamic and less random overall. I'm still cogitating. In all, the system works okay, but I just feel like something is missing, like I said... I just can't figure out what it is.

Not RAW (BoB, page 73), players determine if they do Extended Melee or not:

Extended Melee Rounds, or New Round?
The leader decides, after quick consultation with his men, if there is a need to extend the round, or whether to go to the next one. The Gamemaster does whichever they wish.


OK, looks like I was wrong on that one. I would not GM it like that, for obvious reasons. I usually aim for one Extended Melee per battle and give Glory for that as if it were a regular melee, outside the battle rules themselves. But as I said in the beginning, I don't use BoB II for our battles.



The last two rounds had them all inspired and doing extended melee. One was to rally to Roderick who had fallen on hard times in my description of the battle, so as to get them out of the enemy camp, (and thus Loyalty-Lord was rolled)


Fair enough.



and then the second was to go after the banner of Octa where they all rallied together and used their group Loyalty Passion.


I wouldn't have allowed them to use Loyalty (Group) for this until at least one of them was actually in trouble. Although that usually happens soon enough.



Once more, I think the intention was for it to only apply to the PKs but there are so many rules for things that can't actually happen (enemies in your camp, for example), that is why I felt like it's incomplete. I may end up making Battle Events a result of Army Commander rolls rather than just a random number. That might make the Battle feel more dynamic and less random overall. I'm still cogitating. In all, the system works okay, but I just feel like something is missing, like I said... I just can't figure out what it is.

That is close to what I am doing in my homebrew system... I am pretty much counting wins and losses of the army commanders (or the battalion commanders) and then altering the situation based on that. The PKs can possibly do some heroics to try and salvage situation at least partially; I mainly use it for smaller, non-scripted battles so PKs have more of an impact. For instance, one PK managed to shore up a crumbling flank with Battle and fine melee rolls, turning a rout into a retreat.

To take this quickly back to the Glory, the solution is IMHO the one I said before: get rid of the battle size multiplier and instead give just a flat glory reward for participation. This would have altered your 1800 Glory to 720 Glory and 2500 Glory to about 970 Glory. Both which would be plenty enough, but not nearly as insanely high as you are seeing now. But this of course depends on your own feel what is a reasonable Glory Award in your Campaign.

First there is a distinction between army intensity and unit intensity. Unit intensity is determined to pit against the battle skill of the unit leader. The army intensity is an indication on how the battle goes in general.

When the Army intensity becomes below 10 the enemy will begin its retreat in the second round it starts below 10. Also at 0 they will hesitate. At that moment the enemy will begin Withdraw and that means the options for PKs are only to Follow or pursue. Retreat takes 3 rounds. When the intensity is below 0 a second turn they start to run away and this means the option for the PKs is only to chase. See also page 29 for reference.

Also notice that in those cases the unit breaks and the this has a profound effect on the unit intensity as being alone is dangerous.

In scripted battles I decide how the army intensity changes (in case the 3d6-10 result). That way I know a battle goes the way it needs. The PKs can only affect it slightly, although this can change the outcome (for instance from a decisive defeat to indecisive or from indecisive to a decisive victory).

As for the extended rounds. I would use it the same way as Morien and keep the decision in the hands of the GM. Also you can ask for them (or do it as yourself as GM) to set a goal. This is for instance capture/kill the hero in x rounds. If they did not succeed in that amount of time they fail. This limits the number of extended rounds. As for glory I handle them a bit different. I do not count each round, but usually award a set number for achieving their goal ( in the example above for the capture of the hero). This glory is not subject to the modifiers due to victory and such.




In your example the enemy begins withdraw in round 4 (for both being below 10 and for being at 0). In round 7 they start to flee, although they would be gone in the same round using the retreat.

So, from what I'm seeing here, I'm doing it right. No one has really pointed out a place where I messed up (save for the possibility of "Retreat" called for in Round 4, which I was ignoring because this was scripted for a big event in Round 8 in the GPC. I also had Eosa the Giant Rally the Batallion in Round 5 to stop the retreat). I know the difference between Army and Unit Intensity... I was just speeding things up by using the bits and bobs that actually affected things, Army Intensity only matters at the beginning of the round. So I'm definitely going to have to make some modifications to the system to make it feel better for me and my group as well as to reduce the optimal strategy of Charge, Push Deeper, Push Deeper, Push Deeper/Loot (depending on how well previous challenges went).

As far as the use of Loyalty only when someone is in danger... That is not how I've really interpreted the vague rules for Inspiring Passions. I see Inspiring a Passion as something that is done when a character is doing a noble/great deed in the name of/for the Glory of that particular Passion. Rallying to one's Lord in need is, of course, a textbook example, but I could see having your Loyalty (Lord) inspired by a desire to show bravery in front of your lord or to gain his favor from your own prowess. The book itself isn't really specific on how/when Passions should be inspired, but does make it clear that even tenuous inspiration checks *could* be done, since the failure mechanic is meant to balance it out. I try to keep things from being mined for bonuses (and trust me, when a big roll comes up I get a barrage of "does this Passion count" questions), but seeing how the GPC uses Passion rolls, I don't think it needs to be dire consequences for such things to be activated. If I've missed something in the rules, please point me in the direction of further clarification on how Passions should be activated.

Another question: is the Enemy Camp considered a "non-combat zone"? What about Zone 8?

As for the extended rounds. I would use it the same way as Morien and keep the decision in the hands of the GM. Also you can ask for them (or do it as yourself as GM) to set a goal. This is for instance capture/kill the hero in x rounds. If they did not succeed in that amount of time they fail. This limits the number of extended rounds. As for glory I handle them a bit different. I do not count each round, but usually award a set number for achieving their goal ( in the example above for the capture of the hero). This glory is not subject to the modifiers due to victory and such.


Yeah, that is pretty much the way we do it. Just to clarify a bit (in case anyone was interested):
1) The Glory for the Extended Melee is the same as for any other melee. This is not multiplied.
2) However, if the PKs succeed in their goal (capture the banner, defeat the enemy hero/commander) the battle round counts as a critical success for all of them. (We are still using the round based battle glory system of 4th & 5th edition, which is not without its own little quirks, but still...)
3) I often give them 0.5 or 1 or 2 as a multiplier per round for fighting different tiers of enemies. So, if they spend the round fighting really easy enemies, they will get x0.5, because lets face it, butchering skill 8 infantry is not really all that glorious. x2 is for enemy berserkers and other elite.
4) So attacking an enemy commander with is heorthgeneat around him is usually good for whatever they are good for (100 - 250 Glory a pop, using 4th edition Glory rewards) and 4x battle round glory (2 for critical if they succeed, x2 for elite), which would be another +240 each for a Huge Battle.

I guess another question this thread brings to mind is this: Does anyone on these boards use BoB with the rules as written? If so, do they not have the same issues I am presenting here? If not, how do they avoid them?

I'm appreciative for insights on how other people circumvent issues (and will likely steal some), but I'm just trying to get my head around if this is how the book was meant to be used or if there's something I'm missing in the implementation.

I think BoB II is explicit that it is looking at things from the PK perspective; it is not a battle simulator for the whole army.

Yes, I think this is true. I also think it is a bit of a weakness of the system if your PKs are leading the army. The army commander has little effect on the outcome of the battle besides actually fighting in it. Apart from that, I quite like BoB II.

NT

I may end up making Battle Events a result of Army Commander rolls rather than just a random number. That might make the Battle feel more dynamic and less random overall. I'm still cogitating. In all, the system works okay, but I just feel like something is missing, like I said... I just can't figure out what it is.

You could have an opposed battle roll modify the unit events roll. That way there is still some randomness, but the commanders direct it to some extent.

NT

So, from what I'm seeing here, I'm doing it right. No one has really pointed out a place where I messed up (save for the possibility of "Retreat" called for in Round 4, which I was ignoring because this was scripted for a big event in Round 8 in the GPC. I also had Eosa the Giant Rally the Batallion in Round 5 to stop the retreat).

Another question: is the Enemy Camp considered a "non-combat zone"? What about Zone 8?

If the retreat was stopped in round 5, you could have the Army intensity increased by 10 or 20 (whether it was a Triumph or Win for Eosa, like is explained in the Rally the Battalion maneuver. That would make round 6 harder as the Unit intensity suddenly increases.

Zone 8 and 9 start as non-combat zone, but when a unit enters these zones their status change to combat zone. See page 20

The push deeper can only be attempted when they win.
If you start with an Army intensity in round 2 of let say 20. they are at least in zone 5 or 6.
So assume there are no terrain effects. This means that the Unit intensity is at that moment 20 + 10 (zone)= 30.
This means that the chance to get a Win is not that high. At least 50% of the time the Unit intensity rolls a critical. In those cases the best you can get is a Tie result. The tactic becomes much harder to achieve. But I agree that trying to get behind enemy lines is a preferred way of battle.
(I always forget which battle it was but I know a story about Genoese mercenary knights that butchered the English archers and then came into the English camp and started looting. When they came back the remaining English had some time to defeat the French and were now ready to take on the Genoese knights. Of course the mercenaries seeing the result decided to quit the field and the English won that day. So you could have taking loot be time consuming and taking several battle rounds. rounds in which they do not fight and do not gain glory (or the same as for being disengaged)

When army intensity drops to 11 as in your case the chances differ a lot. One of the reasons I do not roll for battle events in scripted battles.In other battles I use a different method to come to Battle events. In those cases I roll 2d6-7 instead of the 3d6-10. I do not like the big jumps for two reasons:
1) I want my PKs to have an impact on the battle. So the chances in army intensity for maneuvers should add to the result of the battle.
2) Army intensity does not chance that strongly and means that battles will probably end in a stalemate.

(I always forget which battle it was but I know a story about Genoese mercenary knights that butchered the English archers and then came into the English camp and started looting. When they came back the remaining English had some time to defeat the French and were now ready to take on the Genoese knights. Of course the mercenaries seeing the result decided to quit the field and the English won that day. So you could have taking loot be time consuming and taking several battle rounds. rounds in which they do not fight and do not gain glory (or the same as for being disengaged)


Lombards (more Milanese) rather than Genoese.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Verneuil



One of the reasons I do not roll for battle events in scripted battles. In other battles I use a different method to come to Battle events. In those cases I roll 2d6-7 instead of the 3d6-10.


Fully agreed with your reasoning re: scripted battles. For other battles, 3d6-10 & 2d6-7 give almost the same average distribution: standard deviation of ~3 vs. ~2.5. You do prevent the rare -7/+8 outliers, though.

I am thinking something like this for army commander rolls to influence the Army Intensity:
Steps: Fumble - Failure - Partial - Success - Critical
4 steps difference (Critical - Fumble): -10
3 steps (Success - Fumble): -5
2 steps (Success - Failure): -3
1 step (Success - Partial): -1
0 steps (Failure - Failure): 0
And the same other way around, if he loses.

I'd to roll the army commanders' Battle skills vs. one another, using the intensity modifiers (flipped). So if one outnumbers the other 2:1. it is +5/-5 to skills. It is pretty much the same thing, but allows me to do it in one opposed roll rather than two (our battle vs. our intensity + their battle vs. their intensity).

If the retreat was stopped in round 5, you could have the Army intensity increased by 10 or 20 (whether it was a Triumph or Win for Eosa, like is explained in the Rally the Battalion maneuver. That would make round 6 harder as the Unit intensity suddenly increases.
Except it has been explicitly discussed here that the rules in BoB only apply to the PK. NPCs can't "Rally the Battallion" (specifically it requires an Army Intensity of 30). Once more, I'm doing my best to go off of RAW. I interpreted the Battle Events roll of 6 to equate to a "Rally" from a Hero.


Zone 8 and 9 start as non-combat zone, but when a unit enters these zones their status change to combat zone. See page 20
Thanks! I knew it was somewhere, but couldn't remember where.


The push deeper can only be attempted when they win.
If you start with an Army intensity in round 2 of let say 20. they are at least in zone 5 or 6.
So assume there are no terrain effects. This means that the Unit intensity is at that moment 20 + 10 (zone)= 30.
I know all of that. That said, a round 2 starting Intensity of 20 requires that you're assuming there are no Starting Conditions, that you roll a 0 on the Battle Events in both round 1 and 2, and no Intensity Modifiers from the first charge results. Those are some sizable "Ifs" there. Heck, this time we had a Round 2 Unit Intensity of 23, but with an Inspired Unit Commander with Battle 20, it was a cake-walk to get a crit. I'm just saying that there's a lot of assumptions that things will be X or Y way. And even if you don't crit or win, Partial Success or Tie both give you the Attack Vs. Two option which can still get you a Move 1 Zone option on a Triumph, so it's still possible to advance. Push Deeper is the optimal way to do it, but not the only way. And the Risk/Reward for getting to the Camp make it worth it early in the battle (since everything gets easier the deeper into the Zones you get).


(I always forget which battle it was but I know a story about Genoese mercenary knights that butchered the English archers and then came into the English camp and started looting. When they came back the remaining English had some time to defeat the French and were now ready to take on the Genoese knights. Of course the mercenaries seeing the result decided to quit the field and the English won that day. So you could have taking loot be time consuming and taking several battle rounds. rounds in which they do not fight and do not gain glory (or the same as for being disengaged)

I could, but then I'm not playing it by RAW. In fact, there really isn't any option to "Loot" in any of the Maneuvers. I used "Stand Fast" as my basis for the "Looting" assuming that they were standing against whatever defensive forces could be mustered while gathering the best of the loot. RAW it pretty much says "Get to camp, get 3x the Loot" w/o any real mechanic behind it. Forcing them to use a battle round to Loot seemed the most fair way to handle it to me.

Sorry I'm late to the party, but I think there's a rules somewhere that says no one event is worth more than 1,000 Glory. One could (and probably should) extend that to entire battles.


T.

Sorry I'm late to the party, but I think there's a rules somewhere that says no one event is worth more than 1,000 Glory. One could (and probably should) extend that to entire battles.


While I agree with that, you could argue that the glory gained in one Battle is actually an aggregate of many discrete effects. Compare this with Inherited Glory (which, as far as I know, is exempt from the 1000 Max Glory) gained while you are knighted (1000 Glory), possibly also Title Glory for becoming a vassal knight and the leap afterwards. All of those are happening in very close succession to one another, certainly much closer than the average battle events.

Anyway, my preferred solution would be to correct the overinflated (IMHO) Battle Glory rather than just flatten everything down to 1000 Glory. I want my player-knights trying to do their best rather than just 'phoning it in' as they are already at the Glory limit. "That's it, guys, we have earned our 1000 Glory. Time to play it safe."

I am quite curious about the experiences of the people who have been using BoB II in RAW mode, like cheeplives was inquiring, too. In particular, I would be interested in hearing if they have seen similar 'Glory exploding through the roof' -phenomenon? Have their players used the extended melee option to rack up hella Glory? Have they found that triumphing is really easy?

@Cheeplives: As you mentioned in the thread before the BoB has some flaws in the system. This makes RAW a bit difficult imho, so I fudge it a bit.
One of them being that the rally the Battalion attempt is mentioned when the Army intensity becomes at 0, but no mention on what its effect it would or could have.
Getting a triumph with an attack vs two is a triumph even harder. You must succeed in every attack to get it. In the early battles when you are fighting against footmen this is easier (due to the +5 bonus for being on a horse). When you are fighting other cavalry this becomes much harder.

And yes the current RAW support the push deeper into the enemy lines option as a safe option. there is some logic behind it as having a unit of heavily armed knights behind enemy lines is dangerous.
An option: You could always rule that when the army intensity increases due to a battle event the enemy closes ranks and add another modifier to the Unit intensity for being cut of from your own troops.

@Morien
Ah. Lombards not Genoese. And Battle of Verneuille. Got to remember that. ;)

I know the deviations of the 2d6-7 and the 3d6-10 are almost the same, but its the outliers that I do not like.
Your idea of the battle roll of the army commanders is an idea I like. I might use that. This means a good army commander vs a bad one also has effect on the battle. in the RAW this has almost no effect on the outcome.

You could also add a modifier when the Army intensity is high or low. So an Army intensity of 30 would add a +5 to your army commander's battle. A 10 would be a -5. A 40 a +10 and a 0 a -10. This would mean that when it goes bad it tends to go worse.

You could also increase the results if the battle is huge to show that the impact of the PKs is less than in smaller battles. Not sure if I want to do that, but could be.

You could also add a modifier when the Army intensity is high or low. So an Army intensity of 30 would add a +5 to your army commander's battle. A 10 would be a -5. A 40 a +10 and a 0 a -10. This would mean that when it goes bad it tends to go worse.

You could also increase the results if the battle is huge to show that the impact of the PKs is less than in smaller battles. Not sure if I want to do that, but could be.

Yep. Like said, I haven't used tha Army Intensity system myself, but what you suggest in above is close to how I tend to narrate it: once one side gains the upper hnd, things start shifting, and once the tipping point is achieved, the modifiers start to appear to show that it is harder to recover from a losing position when the enemy has the upper hand and the momentum.

I think what I would do in the Huge Battle cases is halve the impact (the intensity change) of the PK actions. I think that would be all that is needed, and it is a simple change to do.

I like the Intensity system overall. However, I agree, I would like the Army Commander's to have more of an effect on the outcome of the battle. I'm not sure I'd use a Battle roll every round for this, however. Commander's had little control once the battle actually started. It was mostly in the set up. Perhaps one battle roll part-way through to commit reserves or order the left wing to charge etc. But not every round. The random events actually model pretty well what medieval commanders thought: battle was unpredictable and you should really only do it when you think you have an advantage.

As noted, once things start going your way...they start going your way. With the example that started this thread, Intensity 11, the enemy army was outmaneuvered and outclassed to begin with. They were near retreat from the outset. The PKs should have a cakewalk through this type of battle. It is practically won at the start. The reverse could easily happen to them. If you want more dramatic battles, work to keep the starting intensity around 20. Then it becomes much more difficult to bash through the enemy lines and Charge, Withdraw over and over, becomes a much more relevant tactic...at least until you weaken the other side enough.

Sorry I'm late to the party, but I think there's a rules somewhere that says no one event is worth more than 1,000 Glory. One could (and probably should) extend that to entire battles.


T.
If that rule exists, it's not in the KAP5.1 book (I did a search in my PDF copy for 1000 Glory and found not mention of it anywhere with that kind of ruling). Such a rule would also make the Glory Multipliers in the Book of Battle extremely out of whack (as has been suggested here before).

In all, I see that BoB has some significant issues that I'm going to have to house-rule. I'm just not sure what path this will end up taking. Thanks to everyone for their help.