What possible situations can arise where a PK's Modest trait of 16 is sorely tested? Ideas for court, adventure, battle, etc. are greatly appreciated.

Easiest situation that comes to mind is when the knight is asked to talk about himself and his famous deeds. Famously Modest knight might downplay his own achievements, finding it unseemly to brag about his deeds, even if that would be the truth. "Well yes, I do have some skill with the lance, and have brought no dishonor to my name at tournaments." answers he modestly, even though he was rewarded as the champion of Tournament of X.

A variant of the above is if the knight has not been recognized, and has been seated 'below his station' (such as a famous knight being seated amongst normal knights in a larger feast). Does he sit in silence, does he complain, or does he get insulted?

Other such situations where the knight is being treated as lesser than he is (although care needs to be taken, not even a famously modest knight would tolerate being taken for a commoner, for instance) would be suitable for a Modest test, or where someone lesser is given preference over him.

I have begun to require that a Modest knight actually be modest in game terms,
That is, he gives up his Glory for a deed.
Afterwards when events are spoken of, or even if the subject is him, he has a chance to make his Modesty by denying that he had whatever part other claim to give him

Yea, rough when something affects Glory
But Glory is the stat that measures a person's actions
Otherwise there is no actual game mechanic that addresses Modesty

I tend to do it the other way around in our campaigns, Greg. The normal knights (and especially the Proud ones) have an opportunity for some extra Glory by harping on their own great deeds, while the Modest knight would simply acknowledge the truth and normally try to downplay it. But frankly, if he wins the tournament before Arthur and thousands of his peers, he is not going to deny it afterwards!

But if someone praises him and says that he is the best knight in the kingdom, he would demur and name some names that are greater than he is, while a Proud Knight would puff up and launch into another bragging retelling of his great day at the tournament (worth of extra Glory).

How would a Modest work against a Worldy? Do you think a Modest knight (17 trait) would be of modest means (always be an ordinary Knight, never display his riches, always try to never show off or earn Glory by spending too much)?

I tend to do it the other way around in our campaigns, Greg.

Same. I wouldn't penalize Glory. The knight just doesn't talk about it. He lets others go first. When telling a story about and adventure, downplays his part etc.

How would a Modest work against a Worldy?

That is sensible if we expand the Worldly defintioni to include this


Do you think a Modest knight (17 trait) would be of modest means (always be an ordinary Knight, never display his riches, always try to never show off or earn Glory by spending too much)?
Yes, I think you a correct about his behavior

How would a Modest work against a Worldy? Do you think a Modest knight (17 trait) would be of modest means (always be an ordinary Knight, never display his riches, always try to never show off or earn Glory by spending too much)?

I am going to disagree a bit here with Greg...

There are Expectations. If you are a Baron, you are not going to dress as a regular household knight, even if you are Modest. You are going to dress up as befits your status, as a Baron. In later periods, you are expected to host feasts and tournaments, as part of your Baronial status. Again, even if you are Modest, you would do this.

What you wouldn't do is peacock around in finery that is well above your station, or throw lavish feasts just so that you can show off your wealth and power. But if you are, say, a Round Table Knight and a Prince (like Gawaine), you will dress like you deserve.

Also, note that Worldly doesn't mean that you are only interested in luxury, IMHO. It is a focus on the mundane world. Maybe you are more interested in war and soldiers. You could easily spend the money on more soldiers, and still be personally modest and worldly at the same time. The difference is that a Spiritual and Modest guy would be spending more time in prayer and at church, while the Worldly and Modest guy would take pleasure in whatever hobby strikes his fancy. Maybe he is an avid hunter and thinks nothing about spending Sunday in spearing a wild boar, rather than attending mass. But when his guests would praise him for bringing down such a magnificent beast, he would humbly say that the credit goes more to his hunting dogs holding the boar at bay, allowing him to plunge the spear in. A Spiritual and Modest man would attribute such a thing to God's / Gods' help in steadying his aim.

He lets others go first.

Just highlighting this... A Modest knight would be more 'after you' type of gentleman. If you want the first crack at the Mystery Knight on the Silvery Steed, go right ahead. A Proud knight would definitely want to go first, unless there is a clear status/Glory difference (and keeping in mind his probably inflated estimate of his own Glory). During the campaign, this would naturally mean that the Proud Knight would have more chances to gain Glory than his Modest companion, but also more chances to get himself killed/hurt.

But no matter which one of them takes down the Mystery Knight on the Silvery Steed, he gets the same Glory for the win. It is just that the Proud knight will continue harping about it when he gets the chance, and thus gain additional Glory from successful Orate and Proud rolls, while the Modest knight instead lets another knight brag of his deeds and possibly learns something interesting (Intrigue). Just as an example.

I guess this is open to interpretation. I agree with both your views. I'm not saying, for instance, that he shouldn't have a nice house or a few investments, although I can see why throwing a lavish party just for the sake of it would go against his modesty.

Heck, this PK just married the eldest daughter of an estate holder and her family expects him to keep her lifestyle at the appropriate maintenance level. Her dowry was generous and I've been playing her as opposite to him (Proud). She wants her husband to be the best, always bragging about his deeds, etc.

I can see him making investments in his manor. However, making investments too outrageous for his manor can be a problem (manor £11). He may dress appropriately to his level but going above his station level could be hard for him. However, I don't want to be too heavy-handed about it.

For me, it's also about the changes in periods.

In the earlier Periods, pride is expected. I expect my knights to brag if they want the glory. "Ofcourse I killed the Harpy! And it was a big one I tell you! Wingspan like a dragons!"

Whereas after Arthur takes the throne, modesty becomes the "norm". This means that a knight is expected to "downplay" his glorious deeds, but other knights are expected to press on, and raise his deeds higher than theirs. The modest knight is not dishonest by nature. He is simply humble. "Well yes, I DID happen to kill the harpy, but it was only because I happened to stumbled in through the gate first, it was no account of my bravery or talent. Sir Harling here, deserves much more praise for his killing of the wild wolves! Such beasts they were!"

To summarize:
Earlier period: Glory is TAKEN
Later periods: Glory is GIVEN

I guess this is open to interpretation. I agree with both your views. I'm not saying, for instance, that he shouldn't have a nice house or a few investments, although I can see why throwing a lavish party just for the sake of it would go against his modesty.

Heck, this PK just married the eldest daughter of an estate holder and her family expects him to keep her lifestyle at the appropriate maintenance level. Her dowry was generous and I've been playing her as opposite to him (Proud). She wants her husband to be the best, always bragging about his deeds, etc.

I can see him making investments in his manor. However, making investments too outrageous for his manor can be a problem (manor £11). He may dress appropriately to his level but going above his station level could be hard for him. However, I don't want to be too heavy-handed about it.
Isn't that the marriage dynamic between Erec and Enide?

Is there a published list of what each rank't expected clothing would cost?

Is there a published list of what each rank't expected clothing would cost?

I don't think there is a breakdown for clothing, but KAP 5.1 p. 135-136 lists out Bannerets, Barons, Counts and Dukes (this was still using the old noble title definitions, where counts were plentiful, not he new BotW & BoU definitions) standard of living:
Banneret: at least a Rich knight
Baron: At least a Rich knight + retinue (total 26+ libra)
Count: At least a Superlative knight + retinue (total 84+ libra)
Duke: At least a Superlative knight + retinue (total 164+ libra)

In BotW, the barons spend 5 + 10% of Customary Revenue to their standard of living, including clothing and rare vintages, spices and meats, etc., as well as a stable of horses. So an average Baron (300) would be spending 35 libra on his and his family's standard of living, and even the minor barons would break into Superlative.

Hence my comment that even a Modest Baron would live at a higher standard of living than an ordinary knight and dress for the part.

In KAP 5.1 176-177 there are:
Fine Clothing: 2 libra
Rich clothing: 4 libra
Noble clothing: 8 libra

Assuming that progression would continue, we could have:
Baronial clothing: 16 libra
Rich Baronial clothing: 32 libra
Comital/Ducal clothing: 64 libra
Regal clothing: 128 libra
Rich regal clothing: 256 libra
Imperial clothing: 512 libra

Some ideas to test Modesty:
- Another knight claims to have bested another famous knight during a battle, but it was in fact the PK who did that. Same could be used for any beast or monster. Will you give him the credit? What if that knight is of higher status like a baron/duke/king? What if it is your host or his most trusted advisor who makes the claim?
- When asked about his exploits the PK downplays his part, one of the other listeners is rude and makes either open or veiled accusations that you are not fit to be a knight.
- In battle there is a chance for high glory (in capturing or killing an important opponent or capture a flag). the PK and another have both the same chance who goes first?
- When asked about the exploits of your father/ family? What do you tell them? This could be an opposed roll of Modest vs Love (Family). Example: Was it your father that killed the Duke of Cornwall in the battle of Terrabil?
- You are at a (Saxon) court and almost everyone is ignoring you. They do not see you as a great warrior. You may need to impress them with your deeds. Tell some stories. This can be really hard when you need them to like you in order to get access to something or some place. In this case orate will help, but it is your modesty that will get in the way.
- You love a Lady, but her father is more of the warrior type. In order to impress him and thus gain her hand in marriage you must tell about your exploits.

Something more for a Proudly PK: Telling a loyal vassal of Duke Gorlois and your current host that you killed his liege in battle may not be wise. This could be Modest vs Reckless. Or if asked about your exploits that may get you killed: Did you kill Gorlois in the battle of Terrabil? Proud vs Deceitful.