The “choose maneuver” section of the rules in the “book of battle” is a bit of a mess. I’ll try to give some background for my personal confusion. Skip to the TL-DR part if you don’t want the wall of text. :)

The maneuver choice is an opposed resolution vs unit intensity. In the KP 5.1 rules, opposed resolutions are given the following outcomes;

Win: Succeed at your skill roll and beat the enemy roll, whether or not he fails it.
Partial Success: Succeed at your skill roll, but roll lower than the opposing roll. You lose the roll.
Tie: Equal rolls for both

These are in addition to the normal two: Success and failure.

This means that the basic division of the Maneuver choices table (P. 33 BoB) into Win, Partial success, Loss or Tie is inherently problematic, since a since a partial success is always also a loss. A failure – failing your skill roll entirely – can be a loss or a tie.

To further confuse matters, terms and prerequisites appear in odd places. Some examples;

The “Stand fast” maneuver appears under all headings, including “win”, with the prerequisite “Unit commander lost the battle roll”, which isn’t possible if the unit won.

“Stand versus charge” appears under “partial success”, which isn’t possible if you’ve fumbled, the prerequisite for that maneuver.

Under “partial success”: Unit intensity critical success: your units is attacked by two enemy units! Refer to page 30, the “Attack vs two” maneuver. What does this mean? Must the unit attack vs 2, and can’t do anything else?

Reading through the detailed maneuver explanations does not make things much clearer. The “offensive maneuvers” section has no forcing guidelines, unlike defensive maneuvers. These state that stand vs charge & stand vs two can’t be chosen voluntarily, but are imposed. The defensive maneuvers themselves often use “when the Unit Commander has failed his roll” as a qualifier, for example in “Stand fast” and “stand vs two”. Muddying this further is the example of maercreed creek on page 104, where unit intensity crits and Lord Elad succeeds, and the book advices a “pull back”.

In the battle of Medbourne example the options given for a partial success vs a critical is “Stand vs two, run away or Pull back” which seems odd considering the wording of these maneuvers in their descriptions. Basically, the examples all say different things and the reference to p 38 under critical success doesn’t really makes sense.

TL-DR - What it all boils down to, to me personally, is that it is very difficult to judge what the unit commander can choose to do under which circumstances.

Questions

1. Does unit intensity critical under “partial success” really mean to say “Your unit is attacked by an additional enemy, regardless of maneuver chosen”? Would a crit vs success therefore allow a choice of any maneuver under that heading with an additional enemy added (except the impossible ones)? Or are you simply forced to attack vs two, or even stand vs two?

2. Would the “loss” section of the maneuver choices table be better called “Failure”, and therefore only be applicable if the unit commander entirely failed his skill?

3. Is the “stand vs two” under “loss” vs a critical success mandatory? I.e. can the unit commander choose to “run away” or is “stand vs two” unconditionally imposed?

4. What on earth happens on page 106 in Maercreed Creek, when the unit intensity is 7 and the text states “The Saxons intensity 11 is higher” and that somehow results in standing fast against two enemies? The unit intensity fails, doesn’t crit, but even if it does, partial success would have led to choices according to the prior rounds example…

I wish I could answer properly, but I haven't looked at the KAP5.1 version of Battle for years
I recommend getting the separate Book of Battle from Nocturnal
It cleans up much of the mess, and is available as a pdf for a pretty reasonable amount
Sorry about being unable

no, there is no newer one
I'll give it a shot if you can attack page numbers to your questions though

-g

I wish I could answer properly, but I haven't looked at the KAP5.1 version of Battle for years
I recommend getting the separate Book of Battle from Nocturnal
It cleans up much of the mess, and is available as a pdf for a pretty reasonable amount
Sorry about being unable

Thank you for answering Greg! :)

These questions (and the other ones from the other two posts) all stem from the latest book of battle (2nd edition) available at drivethroughrpg. Is there another one I should be looking at? :)

Ok, I'm very tired at the moment and your explanation and questions are rather long. I'll try to give it a better answer tomorrow with fresh eyes.

First, the system:

Unit Commander (UC) rolls vs his Battle skill. GM rolls vs Unit Intensity.
- SUCCESS: (left hand pillar) UC succeeds. GM does not. Special things happen if UC success is a crit and/or GM failure is a fumble. Looks perfectly reasonable to me.
- PARTIAL SUCCESS: (middle top pillar) UC succeeds vs his battle. GM succeeds with a higher result or crit which triggers "Attacked by two units!". Yes. No choise. UC failed and does not get a choice, but needs to survive the maneuver described on p. 38. It works both ways.
- LOSS: (middle bottom pillar) UC failed battle roll. GM passed. Special effect for UC fumble and GM crit.
- TIE: (right hand pillar) UC and GM tie on crit, fail, fumble (and I guess technically if it happens that UC battle and unit intensity are tied and both roll same success, rare I bet).

The thing is, if it's not a WIN, you are only going to get so much out of your turn, unless the battle was already really going your way (enemy withdrawing, unit disengaged and so on). Otherwise you are left with maybe one poor choices (or none). Survive, get a win and try for a WIN next time.

So what was the questions again?... Oh right.

1. I've read it to mean "You failed so hard you are out of options. Use the maneuver on p. 38 and deal with it." I have let the players choose a maneuver (that they qualify for) sometimes, but when it says "roll 3 and choose 1 enemy" I just use 2 instead. HOWEVER, now that you have peaked my interest I'm not sure. The text on top of the maneuver pillar says "Unit Intensity critical success: Your unit is Attacked by two enemy units! (p. 38)", but among the list of maneuvers it has: "Stand vs Two (p. 44) Enemy Intensity Critical Success" So which one is it? Also, Run Away does not have a condition. Therefore I'll assume you can always choose it.

2. Well, yes and no. You failed the roll, which resulted in a loss in this opposed resolution. But yes, only applies when UC fails/fumbles and GM succeeds/crits.

3. Same as answer 1 I guess. This table is easier to read than Partial Success though. It clearly has only 3 conditional options (Stand Fast = UC lost the battle roll, Stand vs Charge = UC fumbled, Stand vs Two = Enemy Intensity critical success) and Run Away. Does the fact that the fumble and crit results are first mentioned aboce the actual maneuvers mean that they are forced? Does Run Away still apply? Damn you, you've made me doubt myself.

4. Not touching that now, probably just a goof. See about it tomorrow.

OK, answers this time
I found my latest edition of BoB

The “choose maneuver” section of the rules in the “book of battle” is a bit of a mess. I’ll try to give some background for my personal confusion. Skip to the TL-DR part if you don’t want the wall of text. :)

The maneuver choice is an opposed resolution

of the unit leader's Battle skill


vs unit intensity. In the KP 5.1 rules, opposed resolutions are given the following outcomes;

Win: Succeed at your skill roll and beat the enemy roll, whether or not he fails it.
Partial Success: Succeed at your skill roll, but roll lower than the opposing roll. You lose the roll.
Tie: Equal rolls for both

and Loss too



These are in addition to the normal two: Success and failure.

These are generally used only in unopposed rolls



This means that the basic division of the Maneuver choices table (P. 33 BoB) into Win, Partial success, Loss or Tie is inherently problematic, since a since a partial success is always also a loss.

Yes, Partial Success is a loss, but it is when your unit commander succeeds, but the enemy succeeds better
just like in man-to-man where a Partial Success = a loss, but you get to use your shield


A failure – failing your skill roll entirely – can be a loss or a tie.

That is correct
those are special conditions of a loss
So if the unit commander fails his roll he might still get a Partial Success or a Tie (if the enemy also rolled the same number and also missed)


To further confuse matters, terms and prerequisites appear in odd places. Some examples;

The “Stand fast” maneuver appears under all headings, including “win”, with the prerequisite “Unit commander lost the battle roll”, which isn’t possible if the unit won.

That is a typo
I do not know how that crept in, because it is wrong



“Stand versus charge” appears under “partial success”, which isn’t possible if you’ve fumbled, the prerequisite for that maneuver.

You are correct--a fumble cannot be a partial success
That is another error


Under “partial success”: Unit intensity critical success: your units is attacked by two enemy units!

Yes, but that is because the Intensity rolled a critical


Refer to page 30, the “Attack vs two” maneuver. What does this mean? Must the unit attack vs 2, and can’t do anything else?

I don't see this on page 30
However, you are correct--your unit attacks two units
no, they cannot do anything else
As the description p 38 says, "Heroic or foolhardy units can go for the Glory..."
The only time that this maneuver might pay off is against peasants with hoes and shovels, or thieves



Reading through the detailed maneuver explanations does not make things much clearer. The “offensive maneuvers” section has no forcing guidelines, unlike defensive maneuvers.

That is because the offensive maneuvers never force anything
The winner always has his choice (as long as he also meets other prerequisites)


These state that stand vs charge & stand vs two can’t be chosen voluntarily, but are imposed.

That is correct
Stand vs Charge requires that the unit commander fumbled
Stand vs Two requires that the Intensity gets a critical success


The defensive maneuvers themselves often use “when the Unit Commander has failed his roll” as a qualifier, for example in “Stand fast” and “stand vs two”.

That is because he must have failed his roll in those two maneuvers--a partial success doesn't impose them


Muddying this further is the example of maercreed creek on page 104, where unit intensity crits and Lord Elad succeeds, and the book advices a “pull back”.

Yes
Because he doesn't want to fight against two enemy units at once


In the battle of Medbourne example the options given for a partial success vs a critical is “Stand vs two, run away or Pull back” which seems odd considering the wording of these maneuvers in their descriptions. Basically, the examples all say different things and the reference to p 38 under critical success doesn’t really makes sense.

I do not read these as saying diffferent things
It is simply that in Mearcred Creek all the options arenot given, just Pull Back


TL-DR - What it all boils down to, to me personally, is that it is very difficult to judge what the unit commander can choose to do under which circumstances.
Page 33 list all the options that a unit commander can choose from under those four results: win, partial success, loss, and tie
Questions

1. Does unit intensity critical under “partial success” really mean to say “Your unit is attacked by an additional enemy, regardless of maneuver chosen”?
yes


Would a crit
by the Intensity


vs success

by the unit commander


therefore allow a choice of any maneuver under that heading with an additional enemy added (except the impossible ones)?

Yes, as long as all other prerequisites are met


Or are you simply forced to attack vs two, or even stand vs two?

commander's choice, as long as other criteria are met


2. Would the “loss” section of the maneuver choices table be better called “Failure”, and therefore only be applicable if the unit commander entirely failed his skill?

No
primarily because success/failure are defined as being for Unopposed Rolls
And because the result of the Intensity roll affect ooptions
for instance, what if both Fail but roll the same number? That is a tie.


3. Is the “stand vs two” under “loss” vs a critical success mandatory?

No. That occurs only if the unit commander chyooses to stand and fight against the two units. He can still run away


I.e. can the unit commander choose to “run away” or is “stand vs two” unconditionally imposed?

He can Run Away



4. What on earth happens on page 106 in Maercreed Creek, when the unit intensity is 7 and the text states “The Saxons intensity 11 is higher” and that somehow results in standing fast against two enemies? The unit intensity fails, doesn’t crit, but even if it does, partial success would have led to choices according to the prior rounds example…
I do believe that is another error and it ought to read Unit Intensity is 10
thank you for pointing it out

Thanks for hashing this out, guys.

If someone would be so kind as to distill all of the above into a list of specific edits that need to be made and post them in the Book of Battle II Errata forum it would help us get an update done more quickly. Specificity is key. Specify which which text should be edited on which page, as well as the specific language of the edit.


Thanks,


T.

Thank you very much Greg and Sir Micge for your answers, this helped a lot! :)

Just two more questions regarding these maneuvers;

1. When the unit intensity crits and you are unsuccessful with your battle roll, the choice boils down to "stand vs two" or "run away". If you choose "run away" is that also vs two (I imagine that if unit intensity does not crit, then you either stand vs 1 or run away vs 1)?

2. If the unit commander fumbles the choice boils down to "stand vs charge" or "run away". Does the enemy unit get a charge bonus, assuming they have lances, even if the unit commander chooses to run away?

Personally, I'd tend to answer "Yes" to both questions: you run away vs. two, and the enemy unit gets the lance charge bonus also vs an enemy running away.

Thank you very much Greg and Sir Micge for your answers, this helped a lot! :)

Just two more questions regarding these maneuvers;

1. When the unit intensity crits and you are unsuccessful with your battle roll, the choice boils down to "stand vs two" or "run away". If you choose "run away" is that also vs two (I imagine that if unit intensity does not crit, then you either stand vs 1 or run away vs 1)?

Yes all around


2. If the unit commander fumbles the choice boils down to "stand vs charge" or "run away". Does the enemy unit get a charge bonus, assuming they have lances, even if the unit commander chooses to run away?
[/quote]
Yes

Taliesin,
I'm trying to compile the answers in this thread for use in Book of Battle 2's errata.

I'm waiting a few days to see if we have more comments/agreement on the "19 book of battle questions..." thread so that I'll collect all corrections in one document.

Roberto



Thanks for hashing this out, guys.

If someone would be so kind as to distill all of the above into a list of specific edits that need to be made and post them in the Book of Battle II Errata forum it would help us get an update done more quickly. Specificity is key. Specify which which text should be edited on which page, as well as the specific language of the edit.


Thanks,


T.

That's great, Roberto, thanks.


T.