I'm running my first game, and have started my player knights off in the Boy King period with a bog standard £10 manor - essentially a large wooden great hall and not much else, and a 2 DV. I was essentially looking to give them a sizable shopping list, since battle is so profitable.

This leaves them quite vulnerable (bloody Saxons!) so of course they'll be wanting some fortification. My questions are:

- is such a manor even realistic, or would a landed knight inherit something less vulnerable?

- if they do start so vulnerable, and want to build a motte, wouldn't that also require rebuilding the hall, since it's being moved up on top of a hill? So a motte would cost £5 + £13 for a simple wooden hall?

- what's the general rule for how long such extensive construction would take?

Thanks!

Fortifications would require the agreement of the PK's lord, if no agreement is obtained said lord could look at the PK funny, and question his reasons for raising walls. Even in times of troubles, it is understood peasants & family will seek shelter at the lord's castles.

However, your Pendragon may vary, and I would suggest roleplaying it rather than falling into the trap of mathematics and dice rolls.

- is such a manor even realistic, or would a landed knight inherit something less vulnerable?


Fortified manors are exceptions, not the rule. So yes, they are very realistic.



- if they do start so vulnerable, and want to build a motte, wouldn't that also require rebuilding the hall, since it's being moved up on top of a hill? So a motte would cost £5 + £13 for a simple wooden hall?


Yes, but such a construction would be stupid. The normal motte might even be too small to have a hall up top; most have towers. So instead, he should consider building a motte and bailey castle, with the old manor hall in the bailey for normal living, and a tower (likely wooden at this stage) at the top as a last ditch stronghold. This also allows him to protect his peasants and livestock better. Not to mention his own very expensive horses.



- what's the general rule for how long such extensive constitution would take?


Motte is relatively easy and fast to build, all you need is pretty much loads of people with shovels, and you do have plenty of peasants living nearby... We used the old rule from Lordly Domains that you can build as much as the value of the holding is, but it would be even quicker than that in reality.

This link implies that smallest mottes would be built in days, while the really big ones would take months:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_castle#Construction_and_maintenance

I'd say that the wooden tower motte would be of the low end of the scale, so around 1000 man-days of work. A week maybe to do the motte & ditch, and another week for the rest?



Thanks!

You are welcome!

Technically speaking building a "castle" require permission (license to crenellate) from Arthur. Early on (Uther, Boy King) any ditch too deep for a worker to throw dirt out of the ditch would count as a castle and require permission from the King. For KAP, I'd suggest a regular ditch and rampart would be ok but not a double ditch (too deep).

Later on (Conquest ...) the definition had more to do with the crenels atop the walls. Either way, permission from the king. Getting permission might make a decent side adventure.

YPMV, of course. If a castle is fun, let them build it, I'd say.

As for time, I'd use the 'value of the holding limit', in this case £10 per year. That gives some indication of the availability of labor. Sure, you could build a m&b quickly, but usually with lots of labor. William the Conqueror could but usually by forcing local Saxons to do the work. Your peasants are not obligated to build you a castle, and they do need to work the fields if you want to eat. Also, if it takes a while, that adds some tension to the game. Will they fortify the site before the Saxons raid?

As for time, I'd use the 'value of the holding limit', in this case £10 per year. That gives some indication of the availability of labor. Sure, you could build a m&b quickly, but usually with lots of labor. William the Conqueror could but usually by forcing local Saxons to do the work. Your peasants are not obligated to build you a castle, and they do need to work the fields if you want to eat. Also, if it takes a while, that adds some tension to the game. Will they fortify the site before the Saxons raid?

Good point. Maybe allow a quick construction by paying double the price or something? Assuming that the peasants are not busy sowing or harvesting at the time, of course.

The old BotM construction rules are brutal. If the construction gets interrupted by a raid, you lose all progress and recoup only 50% of the costs. It would probably be better to just see if the Saxons torch the piled up timber or something; a short raid would not do anything to the ditch or the motte themselves.

Around such things you can almost build a whole series of adventures:
1) Get permission. Even if you are a famous knight and a proven loyal man, your lord may decide you need to 'proof' your worth. For instance take charge of an outlying manor of the lord that is beset by enemies or rivals. If you are able to deal with the enemies you are worthy. Others are to do some favors for the lord. Also other vassals may feel threatened by such a request and want the same or try to stop you.
2) Get workers. Now that you have permission you need skilled workers to build the tower. Maybe the men are hard to find or someone pays them off to go seek employ elsewhere (could be a rival from step 1 again).
3) Complications. There is someone sabotaging the work. This could be because you are building on a fey burrow or again a rival is at work here (paying some workers to do the dirty work for him). You can make this big or small. This could also result in that you need to find new workers and go back to step 2 to get them.
4) Time is running short. Rumours of a Saxon raid coming your way to undo the work before it is finished, or maybe the lord has give you a timelimit and due to all the delays you are now running out of time.
5) See the finished work damaged or even destroyed. If you are a truly evil GM you may have a large group of Saxon raiders arrive just as they have finished the work. They assault and even if the attack fails it may destroy some or all of the work they have done. The result is of course that they need to go to step 2 again. Or maybe the lord even rethinks his decision and feels that these fortifications are angering the Saxons and increase the number of raids, and that would damage the surrounding manors even more.

At this point they wil probably have invested much more than the standard price for such fortifications, but if it stands they probably feel much more attached to it than just building a fortification. Also their children will speak fondly of their dad that managed to build this magnificent castle.

Wow, thanks all for the excellent feedback! :)

Considering where they're all at in the knightly life cycle – around 3000 Glory and not yet of particular renown – I think I'll leave them in their unfortified manors for now, and let the desire for fortifications arise on its own when the Saxons come again in 516. And if they're really keen on building things up, turning it into a multi-part adventure is perfect!

I think that is fine. The vast majority of manors would be (are) unfortified. I think it might not be totally uncommon to put a palisade around the manor house but an individual knight wouldn't have a castle. In reality it would be too costly to upkeep.

NT