This is the situation in a nutshell: Player-Knight (PK) dies, all heirs are underage, oldest is 8-year old son.

It is the first year of the Conquest Period (519 AD).

Who would become the manor's warden until the PK's son be of age? Earl Robert willing, could it be entrusted to another member of the same family? Was there an order of precedence? Was it necessary to pay anything for the privilege? For continuity sake, I would like to keep the manor within the same family.

If a new family member becomes warden of the manor, could he be from outside Salisbury? If so, and assuming he has already sworn Homage to another Lord, would he be required to swear Fealty to Earl Robert?

Being warden of the manor, would the new knight also take wardship of the widow and underage sons?

The knight's will should specify who holds regency for the heir until he comes of age, generally a brother or cousin (bastard or legit), although I've heard of cases where the mother or the liege lord or the Church gains wardship.

Edited: Well, the PK specified the wife. But there's no reason why other family members can't contest the will.

At this point, there's the PK's wife (not a player-character) and their children - ALL underage. The player wants to bring a family member to hold the manor. However, I feel it would be interesting to bring a character from outside Salisbury. We're not being strictly historical here, but I want to, at least, maintain some sense of credibility to the whole situation. Or the appearance of it... so the above questions still stand.

This is the situation in a nutshell: Player-Knight (PK) dies, all heirs are underage, oldest is 8-year old son.

It is the first year of the Conquest Period (519 AD).

Who would become the manor's warden until the PK's son be of age? Earl Robert willing, could it be entrusted to another member of the same family? Was there an order of precedence? Was it necessary to pay anything for the privilege? For continuity sake, I would like to keep the manor within the same family.


The Liege Lord, i.e. Count Robert, is the default warden. The knight's will can make a request/recommendation, but AFAIK, it is the liege who has the right to the wardship (regardless of the will) and can grant it to anyone he likes, usually to his favorites. Often, it was granted as a reward, especially in the case of heiresses, who could then be 'sold off' in marriage to someone, or even married by the warden himself (or his son), who would NOT be family members, obviously. I would expect payments to happen if there is no specific reason to reward the candidate with the wardship, or if the liege lord wishes to raise some funds and 'sells off' wardships to his vassals. However, since you wish to facilitate this, I'd rule that the Count simply elects to honor the will, as a reward for the deceased PK. Makes it simple.



If a new family member becomes warden of the manor, could he be from outside Salisbury? If so, and assuming he has already sworn Homage to another Lord, would he be required to swear Fealty to Earl Robert?


Yes, he can be from outside of Salisbury, although this would be much rarer. I think the Count would wish for him to swear at the very least Fealty, if not Homage. Fealty might be enough, since it also absolves the liege from duties once the time runs out. However, the warden would be wise not to upset the Count, and in any conflict situation with the two lieges, the warden would be in danger of losing the manor. Granted, in Post-Conquest, this is likely rare, especially since the Count would be more likely to assent to a warden being a vassal of one of his friendly/allied nobles in the first place.

Is there any particular reason to make the cousin into a vassal knight in his own right? Is it so that he has his own manor to pass on to his own son later on? So that you can entangle the player(s) in local events wherever he has his own manor?



Being warden of the manor, would the new knight also take wardship of the widow and underage sons?

Up to the liege lord. Generally, I would say no. However, as said, in this particular case, I might just give all the children for the new PK to look after, and might throw in the widow, too, just to keep things easy. Besides, if the widow is young enough, she might be a nice story hook when she wishes to remarry, or someone wishes to marry her. :) Remember the Widow's Portion, too, which goes for supporting the Widow and her children.

Personally... I would be tempted to bring in NOT a family member, but a trusted household knight of the Count. Marry the widow off to him. That way, any children from that union will be half-siblings of the future PK (part of the family, in other words), and the household knight has some stake in making the manor thrive and cultivate a good relationship with the heir. Whereas if you bring in a cousin with his own family, the focus shifts somewhat over from this manor to whatever manor & family the cousin himself has. The downside of this is that it fulfills neither the players desire to bring in a cousin and your desire to bring in someone from outside of Salisbury (assuming you don't count the outliers of Robert's inheritance to be 'outside of Salisbury'). But I'd definitely offer this as an option for the player. The household knight would likely be an older guy, too, so he would naturally be in the 'retirement age' (from adventuring, that is) by the time the heir is ready to be knighted.

This is how I look at it:
As Morien stated the liege is the default. But granting wardenship of a manor is as much a political statement as is marriage and vassalage itself. So it can be given to a trusted vassal or household knight as a thank you for services rendered or to strengthen the knight to the earl. Reasons to bring in an outsider could be used to strengthen the bonds with another lord.

Wardenship of the children is not something the liege would give out of hands, unless the warden is a trusted favorite knight.

I would say that the warden does swear Fealty at least, and Homage at best. Especially if the knight is an outsider. Having loyalties for two lords is something that will be trouble for the knight himself, as he has to choose. Both lords will also have a knight that in case of a conflict may choose the opposing side. So if it is an attempt to strengthen the bond between lords usually the relationship between them is good or at the least both lords are vassals of the same liege.

In the case of PKs I tend to be more lenient in this and would in this case probably marry the widow to a trusted knight and let it be the next PK. This keeps the control in the hands of the player itself, instead of the GM.

Yes, he can be from outside of Salisbury, although this would be much rarer. I think the Count would wish for him to swear at the very least Fealty, if not Homage. Fealty might be enough, since it also absolves the liege from duties once the time runs out. However, the warden would be wise not to upset the Count, and in any conflict situation with the two lieges, the warden would be in danger of losing the manor. Granted, in Post-Conquest, this is likely rare, especially since the Count would be more likely to assent to a warden being a vassal of one of his friendly/allied nobles in the first place.

That matter is partially solved since Lady Jenna is married to the Duke of Lindsey (the son, not the father who already deceased). I assume part of her dowry includes some lands in Salisbury. And this branch of the PK family (the uncle) is from Lincoln (Lindsey). Now, this doesn't have to be this way. I'm just exploring possibilities. Until the character enters the campaign, information can be changed.


Is there any particular reason to make the cousin into a vassal knight in his own right? Is it so that he has his own manor to pass on to his own son later on? So that you can entangle the player(s) in local events wherever he has his own manor?

Not at all. In fact, the uncle is still alive, and the new character is his bastard son. The uncle (NPC) would be granted hold of the manor and the bastard son is a household knight. Therefore, he would come to the south to "oversee" the manor until the original PK's son is of age. It's just a line of continuity. As for why, we looked at the family tree and the new character is the most suited (i.e. right age).

The wardship of the widow and the children may or may not be kept by Earl Robert. It's irrelevant at this point since they will not be played until they come of age. For now, the cousin is the NEW character.


Personally... I would be tempted to bring in NOT a family member, but a trusted household knight of the Count.

At this point, I must weigh in the player's wishes.


The downside of this is that it fulfills neither the players desire to bring in a cousin and your desire to bring in someone from outside of Salisbury (assuming you don't count the outliers of Robert's inheritance to be 'outside of Salisbury'). But I'd definitely offer this as an option for the player. The household knight would likely be an older guy, too, so he would naturally be in the 'retirement age' (from adventuring, that is) by the time the heir is ready to be knighted.

The player is unnaturally unlucky with his characters. This is his sixth, so I would like to try and have him play this character for more than a couple of years. I also don't want to "age" the character. How did he come to this age with little Glory? Didn't he go to war during the Boy King period? And if he stayed at home or on patrol, how come he is the earl's favourite? All questions I must weigh in.

This is how I look at it:
As Morien stated the liege is the default. But granting wardenship of a manor is as much a political statement as is marriage and vassalage itself. So it can be given to a trusted vassal or household knight as a thank you for services rendered or to strengthen the knight to the earl. Reasons to bring in an outsider could be used to strengthen the bonds with another lord.

In this case, the Duke of Lindsey as stated above. I don't want to nitpick all the details on the why and how. I'm not running a political game. I just need the appearance of credibility to make it possible.


Wardenship of the children is not something the liege would give out of hands, unless the warden is a trusted favorite knight.

Not a problem. As I said above, the family just wants to take care of the manor until the heir is of age. The player wants to play the heir, not the replacement knight. Earl Robert will probably assume wardship of the window and sons (including future PK). My main concern is the manor itself.


In the case of PKs I tend to be more lenient in this and would in this case probably marry the widow to a trusted knight and let it be the next PK. This keeps the control in the hands of the player itself, instead of the GM.

The NEW character won't probably marry the widow since they are cousins.

That matter is partially solved since Lady Jenna is married to the Duke of Lindsey (the son, not the father who already deceased). I assume part of her dowry includes some lands in Salisbury. And this branch of the PK family (the uncle) is from Lincoln (Lindsey). Now, this doesn't have to be this way. I'm just exploring possibilities. Until the character enters the campaign, information can be changed.

Not at all. In fact, the uncle is still alive, and the new character is his bastard son. The uncle (NPC) would be granted hold of the manor and the bastard son is a household knight. Therefore, he would come to the south to "oversee" the manor until the original PK's son is of age. It's just a line of continuity. As for why, we looked at the family tree and the new character is the most suited (i.e. right age).

The wardship of the widow and the children may or may not be kept by Earl Robert. It's irrelevant at this point since they will not be played until they come of age. For now, the cousin is the NEW character.


Fair enough. In this case, I suggest that the Count will keep the wardship of the widow and the other children, in order for him to reward his own trusted knights (mainly the widow's remarriage). The downside of this is that the Widow's Portion cuts exactly the chunk out of the PK's manor that would normally go to supporting his own wife & family. So unless the uncle (father of the new PK) is willing to chip in, the new PK will not be able to marry and have his own family. Given that he is a bastard, I am assuming that the uncle has legitimate children to look after, instead. Now, this need not be a problem for you and the player, assuming that he would be planning on playing the legitimate, ex-PK's branch anyway.



At this point, I must weigh in the player's wishes.


Sure, but it is an option he might not have considered. The advantages are multiple:
1) He gets the full control of the manor.
2) He gets a wife and presumably children. (Assuming the widow is young enough.)
3) The resulting children will be part of the family of the future character (the heir), who can then look after his half-siblings, too.
4) It makes more sense for the Count to reward one of his own.
In short, he gets to continue with his main family, rather than get side-tracked with a cadet branch.

This is not to say that some times the cadet branch isn't a better option. If that is what the Player (and yourself as the GM) want, then hang the conventions and go for it. :)



The player is unnaturally unlucky with his characters. This is his sixth, so I would like to try and have him play this character for more than a couple of years. I also don't want to "age" the character. How did he come to this age with little Glory? Didn't he go to war during the Boy King period? And if he stayed at home or on patrol, how come he is the earl's favourite? All questions I must weigh in.

Who says he doesn't have Glory? You could easily use BoK&L (if you have it) and check the prior events there and give him that Glory (or simply give him some average Glory for the previous Battles in GPC). And don't forget the yearly Glory, too.

As for being the Count's favorite, we are talking about a widow here, not an heiress. He doesn't need to be THAT high up in the Count's favorites, just a deserving household knight with good Loyalty Lord, a decent Glory, some helpful incidents with the Count, and good rolling, which is handwaved away. In short, you can explain this away just as easily as having the Count decide to give the manor to an outsider.

Now, your argument that you don't want to start the Player off with an older character is another thing entirely, and a valid criticism of my suggestion. However, you could still do this kind of a trick... You could have the household knight to be a second/fourth son of a vassal knight, and it is the FATHER who is good with the Count. Since the Father is an NPC, it gives you more control on exactly how much goodwill he burns with the Count to swing this to the new PK, and how much is he willing to burn in the future since he has his other children's futures to consider, too. But at least he has set up his son to get married and have a family, which is more than the son would have achieved in that early age by himself. This would allow you to start with a young PK, with still all the four advantages I listed earlier. It also gives you an interesting NPC (the father) who can meddle when meddling is required, more so than the more distant Lindsey one.

But, I repeat, it is your game & player, and you should do as you deem best. It is not beyond belief that the uncle would ask his liege (Lindsey) to intercede with Lindsey's brother-in-law (Robert), so that he gains control of his nephew's manor. And it is not unreasonable that Robert would agree to do so, in order to foster good relations with Lindsey: he still gets a knight for his army and the widow to reward one of his household knights with. It is not a huge concession to make. The point is that it is not a slamdunk and only appears so since it is in the interests of both the GM and the Player to make it go smoothly, for story reasons. :)

Sure, but it is an option he might not have considered. The advantages are multiple:
1) He gets the full control of the manor.
2) He gets a wife and presumably children. (Assuming the widow is young enough.)
3) The resulting children will be part of the family of the future character (the heir), who can then look after his half-siblings, too.
4) It makes more sense for the Count to reward one of his own.
In short, he gets to continue with his main family, rather than get side-tracked with a cadet branch.

All good points to consider, however, the widow is almost 40 now. She will marry (eventually) but I don't think it's the most suited wife for a starting character.


Who says he doesn't have Glory? You could easily use BoK&L (if you have it) and check the prior events there and give him that Glory (or simply give him some average Glory for the previous Battles in GPC). And don't forget the yearly Glory, too.

I'd rather award Glory for things done in game.


As for being the Count's favorite, we are talking about a widow here, not an heiress. He doesn't need to be THAT high up in the Count's favorites, just a deserving household knight with good Loyalty Lord, a decent Glory, some helpful incidents with the Count, and good rolling, which is handwaved away. In short, you can explain this away just as easily as having the Count decide to give the manor to an outsider.

When you mentioned "favorite" I thought about being really favorite. I'm sure there are other household knights worthy of favoritism.


Now, your argument that you don't want to start the Player off with an older character is another thing entirely, and a valid criticism of my suggestion. However, you could still do this kind of a trick... You could have the household knight to be a second/fourth son of a vassal knight, and it is the FATHER who is good with the Count. Since the Father is an NPC, it gives you more control on exactly how much goodwill he burns with the Count to swing this to the new PK, and how much is he willing to burn in the future since he has his other children's futures to consider, too. But at least he has set up his son to get married and have a family, which is more than the son would have achieved in that early age by himself. This would allow you to start with a young PK, with still all the four advantages I listed earlier. It also gives you an interesting NPC (the father) who can meddle when meddling is required, more so than the more distant Lindsey one.

As I said before, the NEW character's father is an NPC. The NEW character is the only son. We used the BoK&L to roll a new character so we're just having fun with all the little contradictory details. Here's the backstory as dictated by rolls (prior to becoming holder of the Salisbury manor).

NEW PK (PK2) was supposed to be the son of the Lincoln militia leader. He wasn't. The milita leader's wife had an child with a knight (NPC1). PK2 is the NEW character. When the militia leader died in a Saxon attack, NPC1 Knight - having no other sons of his own - took PK2 and widow, trained him as a knight and made him is heir. Think Balian in Kingdom of Heaven. Now, we have two characters: the elder knight (NPC1) and the NEW character (PK2). At this point, this story can easily be adapted to any Salisbury knight who is also a branch of the original PK's family. I'm just considering options and injecting a bit of variety into the campaign.


But, I repeat, it is your game & player, and you should do as you deem best. It is not beyond belief that the uncle would ask his liege (Lindsey) to intercede with Lindsey's brother-in-law (Robert), so that he gains control of his nephew's manor. And it is not unreasonable that Robert would agree to do so, in order to foster good relations with Lindsey: he still gets a knight for his army and the widow to reward one of his household knights with. It is not a huge concession to make. The point is that it is not a slamdunk and only appears so since it is in the interests of both the GM and the Player to make it go smoothly, for story reasons. :)

To make it clear, this is just a temporary situation. PK2 is a replacement character. Eventually, the underage heir will become a PK of his own and PK2 will return to his manor in Lindsey. If the player wants to keep going with PK2, we'll just have to go with a manor in Lindsey and adapt the campaign.

I'll certainly consider making PK2 a Salisbury knight if it's completely unlikely, even from a feudal perspective, to have this situation. I am loose with history but I don't want to completely ignore it. The setting must stay true to reality in some regards to preserve credibility.

All good points to consider, however, the widow is almost 40 now. She will marry (eventually) but I don't think it's the most suited wife for a starting character.

Ah, then never mind. She is not a good candidate for trusted household knight to start a family with. A better prospect for an older vassal knight with plenty of heirs of his own, who in turn would not be a good new PK.



As I said before, the NEW character's father is an NPC. The NEW character is the only son. We used the BoK&L to roll a new character so we're just having fun with all the little contradictory details. Here's the backstory as dictated by rolls (prior to becoming holder of the Salisbury manor).

NEW PK (PK2) was supposed to be the son of the Lincoln militia leader. He wasn't. The milita leader's wife had an child with a knight (NPC1). PK2 is the NEW character. When the militia leader died in a Saxon attack, NPC1 Knight - having no other sons of his own - took PK2 and widow, trained him as a knight and made him is heir. Think Balian in Kingdom of Heaven. Now, we have two characters: the elder knight (NPC1) and the NEW character (PK2). At this point, this story can easily be adapted to any Salisbury knight who is also a branch of the original PK's family. I'm just considering options and injecting a bit of variety into the campaign.

To make it clear, this is just a temporary situation. PK2 is a replacement character. Eventually, the underage heir will become a PK of his own and PK2 will return to his manor in Lindsey. If the player wants to keep going with PK2, we'll just have to go with a manor in Lindsey and adapt the campaign.

I'll certainly consider making PK2 a Salisbury knight if it's completely unlikely, even from a feudal perspective, to have this situation. I am loose with history but I don't want to completely ignore it. The setting must stay true to reality in some regards to preserve credibility.

Heh. To be honest, I am actually having harder time for the Duke of Lindsey allowing a bastard to inherit the uncle's manor (eventually) than the Count of Salisbury doing a small favor for his brother-in-law (the Duke of Lindsey) and agreeing to have one of the Duke's vassal knights, a kinsman (the uncle) to the dead PK, to look after the manor. :P Is there particular reason why he needs to be the heir of the uncle, too, whilst being a bastard?

Heh. To be honest, I am actually having harder time for the Duke of Lindsey allowing a bastard to inherit the uncle's manor (eventually) than the Count of Salisbury doing a small favor for his brother-in-law (the Duke of Lindsey) and agreeing to have one of the Duke's vassal knights, a kinsman (the uncle) to the dead PK, to look after the manor. :P Is there particular reason why he needs to be the heir of the uncle, too, whilst being a bastard?

At this point, it's all very much in the open. I'm still discussing this with the player so I turned to these forums for a bit of brainstorming. The bastard himself (the new PK) isn't the heir to the mansion. Let's just say he is the steward/defender of the manor in uncle's absence, the uncle being so far in Lindsey. It's just an explanation on how things turned the way they did.

Another option, far more simpler, would be to make the uncle not an uncle at all but just another Salisbury knight. Story stays pretty much the same (new PK is bastard, son of this older knight, etc.) Then, older knight is rewarded with wardship with services rendered. Since he now needs to secure another knight for Servitium Debitum, new PK becomes that knight.

There's another point I need to address. I'm using the Book of Battle so I need to justify why this new knight should also belong to the same unit as the established characters. :-)

At this point, it's all very much in the open. I'm still discussing this with the player so I turned to these forums for a bit of brainstorming. The bastard himself (the new PK) isn't the heir to the mansion. Let's just say he is the steward/defender of the manor in uncle's absence, the uncle being so far in Lindsey. It's just an explanation on how things turned the way they did.


No, I meant that if the uncle only has one son, the bastard, why would the Duke of Lindsey let the bastard inherit once the uncle kicks the bucket? If the uncle has legitimate daughters, their husbands should be demanding that their wives inherit. Legitimate children before (acknowledged) illegitimate children regardless of sex. And if the uncle doesn't have ANY other children, then the Duke of Lindsey would normally get that manor for himself, once the uncle dies. Why should he accept a bastard's claim? Especially since this bastard has been spending the last decade or more in Salisbury, so he is a stranger to the Duke? Again, this can be handwaved & explained away, I am just saying that the bastard inheriting is a bigger deal than arranging a kinsman of the deceased who is also a vassal of the liege's brother-in-law getting the wardenship of the deceased's manor.



Another option, far more simpler, would be to make the uncle not an uncle at all but just another Salisbury knight. Story stays pretty much the same (new PK is bastard, son of this older knight, etc.) Then, older knight is rewarded with wardship with services rendered. Since he now needs to secure another knight for Servitium Debitum, new PK becomes that knight.


Same inheritance woes arise as in above. Why is the liege allowing the bastard to inherit? The bastard has no legal right to it. (Well, I do say that, but it is up to the liege and he might be inclined to let it slide because of Reasons.)



There's another point I need to address. I'm using the Book of Battle so I need to justify why this new knight should also belong to the same unit as the established characters. :-)

One of the reasons why I like to clump my PKs' manors together geographically: being neighbors, it is natural for them to train together as an eschille, and hence be in the same unit. It is much more difficult if you are located on the other side of the county... Also, it is easier to come up with a local threat that they all wish to do something about, and can do, without the need to summon their pals from all over Salisbury.

Problem solved. I went with the path of least resistance. The new character will become the household knight of another player-knight until such time he is allowed to marry the daughter of his original deceased knight thus marrying into his original family. The girl will be eligible in 5 years. We'll see what happens when the original heir is of age.

Some ideas how everyone could be looking at the deal:

Earl Robert: The first years of the young knight he will be in the court of Salisbury and gives the Earl time to bond with this young knight. when the knight returns to the court of Lindsey he may have a friend in that court and some extra leverage towards the Duke. The deal will also strengthen the bonds between Salisbury and Lindsey.

Duke Lindsey: He may not be sure that the young knight is worthy to inherit the manor of his uncle and this is an easy way to give the boy some time to proof himself as a lord of a manor. If it all goes wrong it is not in his own domain. Furthermore it will give the Duke a friend in the court of Slaisbury and that may give him some extra leverage towards the Earl. the deal will also strengthen the bonds between Salisbury and Lindsey.

The Uncle: If the boy shows his worth in Salisbury the Duke may go along that he inherits the manor. Besides the heir of that manor is still only 8 years old and a lot can happen before he reaches adulthood. In the end the boy may end up with 2 manors?

The young knight: the inheritance is still in question and I need to proof my worth, so if I do well this may sway the Duke. also if I befriend the Earl he may be able to speak on my behalf.

Problem solved. I went with the path of least resistance. The new character will become the household knight of another player-knight until such time he is allowed to marry the daughter of his original deceased knight thus marrying into his original family. The girl will be eligible in 5 years. We'll see what happens when the original heir is of age.

That works, too.


Some ideas how everyone could be looking at the deal:

Good ideas there, too. I'd just point out that if the heir dies, his younger brothers (or sisters, if there are no brothers) would inherit. The warden has no claim on the manor without the ward, although if the liege starts looking outside the immediate family, then the former warden is of course better positioned, having demonstrated his ability to take care of the manor and its responsibilities. (Whether you allow cousins to marry is a bit iffy, but I would, if they are of the bloodline, just to ensure that there are more spares to use.)

Would a household knight be entitled to his own coat of arms?

Would a household knight be entitled to his own coat of arms?

My understanding is that each knight is entitled to his own coat of arms (although they might use the family's coat of arms with labels to mark which son they are). Household knights might pattern their coat of arms to mimic their liege's, though, especially if they are knighted by the liege.

For example, in BoU, Uther's household knights have their own coats of arms that have Uther's dragon motif and coloration, but still distinctive enough. A familial resemblance, if you wish.


In our old Campaign (predating BoU's publication), the rule of thumb was:
Uther - Boy King: Household knights carry the (simplified) coat of arms of their Liege. Some specific, glorious household knights might have their own, as a 'reward' from the liege.
Conquest: Some household knights carry their own coat of arms, depending on the Liege.
Romance onwards: All knights have their own coat of arms.

Part of the reasoning was that up until the end of Conquest, big battles were common, and it was easier to tell friend from foe with a glance when the shield designs were simple. After Conquest, individual adventuring and jousting becomes more common, so it becomes important to distinguish who each individual knight is.

Although Morien is right I used it a bit different.
In my campaign I have used the simple rule that each knight has a right to bear a coat of arms.
Families usually use that of their own father, although sons probably use a cadence (see attachment) to signify which son they are. The eldest will use that of the family when he inherits the titles.
Household knights tend to use in part the coat of arms of their liege if that is the lord who knighted him. Some baster sons also use that of their father in a different way, usually other color schemes, but with the same markings.