The Battle Size table in page 18 states that Fights and Clashes are too small to use the Book of Battle (and not addressed therein). However, the Battle of Medbourne looks like a Fight to me, that is, according to the book itself (less than 25 knights and 100 or so combatants). The account of that battle even mentions it being a raid. If we go by the book, the Skirmish rules in the core book are no longer used and every confrontation with lots of knights becomes a Battle. What gives?

The battle size of Medbourne is obviously an oversigth; I'll add this to the running list of errata.
However, in my opinion this highlights an advantage of the system. Although it's not designed to deal with small fights/skirmishes, the Battle system can be used for these kinds of combat without many adjustments.

As for the BoB2 rules superseding the skirmish rules in the KAP handbook, I don't know where this is written, but it strikes me as inconsistent: if the BoB rules are to be used for 25+ knights battles, we need to have something to manage smaller clashes. Why not the KAP skirmish rules? If you point me out to where this is written, I'll add it to the errata list as well.

Best,

Roberto

The battle size of Medbourne is obviously an oversigth; I'll add this to the running list of errata.
However, in my opinion this highlights an advantage of the system. Although it's not designed to deal with small fights/skirmishes, the Battle system can be used for these kinds of combat without many adjustments.

No argument there.


As for the BoB2 rules superseding the skirmish rules in the KAP handbook, I don't know where this is written, but it strikes me as inconsistent: if the BoB rules are to be used for 25+ knights battles, we need to have something to manage smaller clashes. Why not the KAP skirmish rules? If you point me out to where this is written, I'll add it to the errata list as well.

A bit of misunderstanding here. I didn't say BoB superseded the Skirmish rules. My original intent was: why use the Skirmish rules if BoB also handles smaller sized armies? Obviously, it won't.

By the way, according to the BoB, only armies with more than 250 are handled by that system (again, table on p. 18), not 25+ knights. So, expanding on that, everything from 10 to 199 knights should be handled by the Skirmish rules.

A bit of misunderstanding here. I didn't say BoB superseded the Skirmish rules. My original intent was: why use the Skirmish rules if BoB also handles smaller sized armies? Obviously, it won't.

By the way, according to the BoB, only armies with more than 250 are handled by that system (again, table on p. 18), not 25+ knights. So, expanding on that, everything from 10 to 199 knights should be handled by the Skirmish rules.


My two denarii... AKA 'This is how I'd GM it':

Number of Combatants: System to use
10: Run as a regular melee. (Typical PK group vs. NPKs.)
30: Run as a regular melee, or if in a hurry, then as a Skirmish. (Not quite the same as KAP 5.1 Skirmish, see below.)
100: Run as a Skirmish or as a Battle, but with increased PK impact, depending on the number of knights.
300: Run as a Battle, but with increased PK impact.
1000: Run as a full Battle.


Hierarchy of Resolution

Regular Melee: Blow by blow, using normal combat rules. Most often in use when the PKs are the only ones fighting on their side, or if there is just a couple of NPKs reinforcing them. Thus, it is fully up to the PKs how the fight goes.

Skirmish: Focus on PKs' squaring off with their counterparts in the opposing force using normal Combat system. The foot soldiers and such are dealt with an opposed Battle roll, which is modified by the successes of the PKs against their opponents. (This latter part is a major omission in the KAP 5.1 Skirmish system, IMHO, where the PKs' personal successes have NO impact on whether the Skirmish was successful or not; only the single Battle roll counts.)

Battle rules with increased PK impact: The PK combat is abstracted, too, into battle rounds rather than fighting blow by blow. PKs' successes matter to the final result, thanks to the scale of the engagement (the PKs may even be the majority of the knights on the battlefield, still). (For example, multiply the intensity shifts by 2 or 3 depending on the scale of the battle.)

Battle rules (BoB II): The PK combat is abstracted, but has some impact on the Battle. Still, the PKs are just a small part of the armies, and are unlikely to tilt the whole battle by themselves.


To me, it is a matter of scaling. BoB II is intended for big armies, and the PKs are unlikely to manage to do much. However, if you have like 24 knights in the field, altogether, and you have 6 PKs, then those PKs are 50% of one side's knights (assuming equal sides). Their successes and failures should be critical to how the battle goes. If they chew through their opponents, the enemy side should be losing the fight and vice versa.

By the way, according to the BoB, only armies with more than 250 are handled by that system (again, table on p. 18), not 25+ knights. So, expanding on that, everything from 10 to 199 knights should be handled by the Skirmish rules.

Minor nitpicking: you are mostly right, I wrote the wrong number. However, the table text says "Fights, and MOST Clashes are too small to use Book of Battle, and are not addressed here" (emphasis mine). So, I take this to mean that for 25-249 knights clashes the GM can choose which system to use, and that BoB2 can in fact handle these battle sizes.

As for your original question, "why use the Skirmish rules if BoB also handles smaller sized armies?", i guess that it CAN handle smaller clashes, but it is also more complicated than the Skirmish rules. So, for some battle sizes, whether to use BoB or KAP 5.2 Skirmish should be a matter of taste / time available / focus on PKs and so on.

As for the exact sizes that one system or the other handles well... Great answer Morien! Thank you for the insightful suggestion. What you propose takes care of most of the problems/errors highlighted by dwarinpt (apart from the Medbourne example...). I think this should become canon and be added to the BoB2 text.

Of course, my 2 cents as always...

Roberto

My two denarii... AKA 'This is how I'd GM it':

Number of Combatants: System to use

Just to be clear, you're talking about the overall number of combatants and not just knights, right?

Just to be clear, you're talking about the overall number of combatants and not just knights, right?

That's correct.

The numbers are just my own preference, though, based around 5 PKs or so. If you only have like 2 PKs, I might start thinking about using Skirmish rules already in 10+ fights. Also, the quality of the enemies matter. For instance, recently, I had 5 PKs against 20 bandits. The fight was over very quickly, as it was one hit one kill, and the knights were on horseback, so it was usually one round = one or two hits, too. Against 20 knights, even if they would be coming one after the other, this is much more of a grind, and if they all came at once, it would be a slaughter of the PKs...

Also, using Skirmish/Battle rules makes less sense if the PKs are the only ones on the field, regardless of the number of enemies. Although at that point, if they are facing 100 enemies and are determined to fight, I might say: "OK, lets roll three summary rounds and see how many of them you kill before they swarm you under." Of course, if they all roll very well, especially with criticals, it might go their way after all... If it serves the story and makes sense (i.e. the morale of the enemy breaks).

Good game, I have played this game its very good in speed and graphics.