Something that came up in a previous (short lived) campaign that is likely to come up again: Dowry and Dower.

For the record, we are using mainly KAP5.2, Warlord, Estate, Uther and K&L. I'm also using Entourage for squires, wives and random marriage. I've capped the random marriage result to 24 for vassal knights and 15 for household knights. Anything beyond that has to be earned through gameplay and is represented by gaining bonuses with a certain lady towards a roll and/or banking bonuses to roll with liege lord (ala KAP marriage rule). Different eligible hign ladies have different requirements. The older twice widowed lady can choose who she marries (but prospective husband still needs his lords permission) so I require the knight to gain +10 with her before he can try. Another lady is a young sole heiress who is reserved for someone really special so you must have +10 with liege lord before he would consider you.

So, lets set up the scene:

Most ladies on the chart come with either Dowry or Dower (widow's portion) of land. Dower being 1/3 or late husbands land that she keeps for life to provide for herself and her children. Once the lady dies the land is returned to the estate. Dowry adds to the new husbands lands for good as far as I can tell. (Please tell me if this is not the case, even if the wife dies on the first childbirth roll?)

Say we have the standard 10£ manor and marry either of these two ladies from the table:

A) Co-heiress (1 of 4) of a vassal knight. Dowry: £2d6 treasure, (1d3+3) x £0.5 land.
B) Widow of a rich vassal knight. Dowry: £4d6 treasure (2.) Widow's Portion: £1d3+4 land

A) brings in 2-6£ cash money and 2-3,5(rounding?)£ of land added to manor for good. Lets make it a 13£ manor now.

B) brings in 4-24£ money and 5-8£ land for her lifetime IF she is childless. If she has children from the previous marriage, then the money belongs to her children (as per note 2 on p19.). Lets make the manor 17£ now.

Lets say our unfortunate knight dies the following year, but a son was born.

Widow A would get 1/3 or 4£ dower leaving the next player knight with a 9£ manor until the widow dies.

Does widow B get her 7£ plus 1/3 of the original 10£ (3£) or 1/3 of the whole 17£ (6£) which would leave her with less than she had before? The latter doesn't seem reasonable since the land belongs really to her first husbands estate anyway.

What about living mothers of player knights? Shouldn't they hold a dower of the original manor? Do they? Is the 10£ what's left after dower or should it be reduced to count for it?

I'm sure most games this hasn't been considered, but since it's in there shouldn't it apply to all and not just NPC's

What's the policy on marrying your brothers widow to regain the land?

Most ladies on the chart come with either Dowry or Dower (widow's portion) of land. Dower being 1/3 or late husbands land that she keeps for life to provide for herself and her children. Once the lady dies the land is returned to the estate. Dowry adds to the new husbands lands for good as far as I can tell. (Please tell me if this is not the case, even if the wife dies on the first childbirth roll?)


Inherited lands stay with the heiress' bloodline, or in the absence of other heirs, escheat back to the liege lord (baron or king). There are some instances of the husband retaining the use of the land and the title until his own death, though. We generally play it so that the husband keeps the lands (after the death of the heiress wife) IF AND ONLY IF there are surviving children in common with the heiress. The husband then retains the lands 'by the right of his children' rather than 'by the right of his wife'. No children and no wife = no right to the land. Now, if the lands escheat back to the liege lord, he MAY decide to grant the lands to the husband anew, as a real grant. This might be the case if the husband has already 'earned' a manor and was given the heiress in marriage in order to get a manor into his bloodline (via children with the heiress); the liege lord might decide that even with the heiress dead without children, the knight is still worthy of keeping the manor.

Anyway, the important distinction here is that the Dowry Land NEVER EVER become part of the husband's own estate. They remain separate, and only children of the heiress may inherit it.

Example: The Knight has Manor A and two boys from a previous marriage. He marries the Heiress of Manor B.
1a) They have no children together. Manor A goes to the eldest son from a previous marriage, Manor B returns to the heiress' family or the liege lord.
1b) They have two daughters together. Manor A goes to the eldest son from a previous marriage, Manor B is split between the two daughters.
1c) They have two sons together. Manor A goes to the eldest son from a previous marriage, Manor B goes to the eldest son of the second marriage.
1d) If the two children from a previous marriage were girls instead, if there is a son from the second marriage, he inherits both A (as the eldest son of the knight) and B (as the eldest son of the heiress) manors.
1e) If there are 2 daughters from a previous marriage and two daughters from the second marriage, Manor A is split in four ways (between all 4 daughters of the Knight) and Manor B is split in two between the two daughters from the second marriage (the Heiress' children).



Say we have the standard 10£ manor and marry either of these two ladies from the table:

A) Co-heiress (1 of 4) of a vassal knight. Dowry: £2d6 treasure, (1d3+3) x £0.5 land.
B) Widow of a rich vassal knight. Dowry: £4d6 treasure (2.) Widow's Portion: £1d3+4 land

A) brings in 2-6£ cash money and 2-3,5(rounding?)£ of land added to manor for good. Lets make it a 13£ manor now.


Nope, the land is added only if there are children to inherit the heiress, as stated above. Even then, it is not really the same MANOR'S land, but a part of a separate manor somewhere else. (Doesn't make a huge difference in BotE, but it does mean that it is a parcel of land somewhere else, not at the caput major.)

As for Rounding, do what you will. BotE and BotW trace it down to £0.1, which at least for Honours is a bit too much, IMHO. I'd be happy enough to keep it to £1, but that is just me. :)



B) brings in 4-24£ money and 5-8£ land for her lifetime IF she is childless. If she has children from the previous marriage, then the money belongs to her children (as per note 2 on p19.). Lets make the manor 17£ now.


Correct about the Dowry money. However, the Dower lands produce that income for her even if she did have children. It is hers for the rest of her life. (More about this later with PKs' mothers.)



Lets say our unfortunate knight dies the following year, but a son was born.

Widow A would get 1/3 or 4£ dower leaving the next player knight with a 9£ manor until the widow dies.


Actually, she gets £3.3 (or £3) from the knight's manor, AND her original inheritance of £3, since that is not part of the PK's estate. Again, it is a bit unclear when the transfer of the inheritance happens to the son. Generally, we assume that takes place when he is knighted, even though the mother might still be alive, but in some other cases, it might wait until she dies. Easier to play with the former. It is correct that she keeps the Dower until she dies.



Does widow B get her 7£ plus 1/3 of the original 10£ (3£) or 1/3 of the whole 17£ (6£) which would leave her with less than she had before? The latter doesn't seem reasonable since the land belongs really to her first husbands estate anyway.


Correct, she gets the £7 original dower (never part of the PK's estate anyway) + £3 from the PK's estate = £10.



What about living mothers of player knights? Shouldn't they hold a dower of the original manor? Do they? Is the 10£ what's left after dower or should it be reduced to count for it?

I'm sure most games this hasn't been considered, but since it's in there shouldn't it apply to all and not just NPC's


Yes, they should, until they die, and yes they should from the £10 manor held by the PKs. £10 is the full evaluation of the manor, so if the mother insists on her Dower, then the PK has £7 left. Note that the Dower does come with its Servitium Debitum obligations, too, so it is more like losing £2, which the unmarried PK can afford easily enough. In fact, the mother would be likely to stay on as the steward of the PK's estate, until he marries. Since it is in the mother's interest to see her children marry well and soon, and get grandchildren, in our game, they generally waive their dower (or pay it back to the PK), save for the £1 they need to support themselves. Given the Discretionary Funds of £1 per £10 manor, this means that the PK can support his old mother and his new family without problems at the same time.

Or you can just rule that the mother dies or joins a nunnery or something in her advanced years, and waives any claim to the Dower, to make things simpler.



What's the policy on marrying your brothers widow to regain the land?

Historically (Catholic Church during Medieval period, on which the KAP society is based on), a HUGE NO NO. As far as the Church is concerned, once the marriage has been consummated, your sister-in-law is now the same as your sister, so it would be incest.

The only reason that Henry VIII was able to marry Catherine of Aragon (widow of his big brother, Arthur) was because people were swearing up and down that the marriage was not consummated, and that Catherine was still a virgin. This allowed the Pope to grant them a dispensation to marry (and how much arm-twisting and/or bribes from the King of England and the King of Spain (actually, Ferdinand was just the King of Aragon, officially) that might have taken is left to the imagination). Henry changed his tune later on when he wanted an annulment, claiming that the original marriage HAD been consummated, and hence it was an incestuous marriage and needed to be annulled.

However, this is 1000 years before in a basically chivalric fantasy. So if you want to take Old Testament with its direction for a man to marry his brother's widow, you can. Do keep in mind, though, that it is the LIEGE LORD who decides the next marriage for the widow, not the deceased knight's brother! For that matter, there is no guarantee that the brother would even become the guardian of his nephew; again, the default guardian is the Liege Lord. (Admittedly, we find it much easier to play so that the eldest uncle is almost always appointed the guardian, as this lets the PKs to continue looking after their own manors: less work for me, more fun for the players. I am just making the point that it need not be AUTOMATIC.)

Hope this helps! Feel free to ask for clarifications if something was left unclear. :)

Couple of links to similar questions:

Consanguinity:
http://nocturnalmediaforum.com/iecarus/forum/showthread.php?2329-Consanguinity-Illegitimacy-and-Inheritance
http://nocturnalmediaforum.com/iecarus/forum/showthread.php?2847-Marrying-a-Brother-s-Widow

Inheritance:
http://nocturnalmediaforum.com/iecarus/forum/showthread.php?2257-Inheritance-Law-Primogeniture-in-a-Polygamous-Relationship
http://nocturnalmediaforum.com/iecarus/forum/showthread.php?2321-Widow-s-Gifts-and-Dowries
http://nocturnalmediaforum.com/iecarus/forum/showthread.php?2290-Inheritance-issues
http://nocturnalmediaforum.com/iecarus/forum/showthread.php?2277-Inherritance-law

In particular, this response would hopefully take care of the inheritance questions:
http://nocturnalmediaforum.com/iecarus/forum/showthread.php?2257-Inheritance-Law-Primogeniture-in-a-Polygamous-Relationship&p=19012&viewfull=1#post19012

That was excellent. All questions answered in one swoop. I've read the additional threads you linked and any new questions that arose are also cleared.

Can't wait to start messing with the players, since they can't seem to keep their members in their pants. One knight is just about to marry an elderly widower and was almost drooling at the thought of her manors. I don't have the heart to tell him he's getting none of it.

Can't wait to start messing with the players, since they can't seem to keep their members in their pants. One knight is just about to marry an elderly widower and was almost drooling at the thought of her manors. I don't have the heart to tell him he's getting none of it.

Weeelll... The custom is that the husband controls the wife's property while they are married. His HEIRS will not be getting any, but while the widow is alive, the widow's portion should be increasing the wealth of the husband, too. This of course is one of those things why a widow who gets to choose her own husband (or NOT, I think it was the third (proposed) marriage) might not be so keen on remarrying, as she has the control of her own property at that stage and might not wish to be under the rule of yet another man.

All right. So husband doesn't get the money, but does get to control the income from the land. Now, in the case I was mentioning there is an added complication I think I know the answer to, but would like verified.

The lady has been married twice and both marriages produced heirs.

Husband #1 was a vassal knight who later died, but the son is now grown and holds the manor. His mother has released her dowry since she has quite enough from the second husband.
Husband #2 was an estate holder with extensive land. The son is only 3 years old. The cash money dowry is being held for this son then. This would mean the land all goes to the son also when his mother dies.
Husband #3 who is the player knight then gets to only enjoy the profits of the dower for the duration of their marriage and any offspring from this union will not gain from it. Other than being blood related to an important estate holder.

Oh hell, this previous child thing brought up another issue with another player knight.

Player Knight 2 ended up being pressured into marriage with a slightly wild pagan lady who is a daughter of an estate holder. He slipped and the lady got pregnant. She was already considered "spoiled" for having a young son, whose father she refuses to name, but claims is a famous knight of the realm. The dowry was 11£ land and 11£ money. Unknown to everyone the father of the child is not hiding out, but actually on a quest, doesn't know of the child and will return in 7 years. He will claim the boy as his own and legitimize him as his heir. At this point PK2 has two sons with his wife. What happens with the dowry?

Husband #1 was a vassal knight who later died, but the son is now grown and holds the manor. His mother has released her dowry since she has quite enough from the second husband.


You mean her Dower, the Widow's Portion of 1/3rd of the manor? Then sure, she can sign those over (and yes, she should make an official legal document PRIOR to a new marriage, or the new husband might contest it as depriving him of his rights). Same with any inherited lands she might have. Also, the cash dowry for the first marriage should go to this son, too. However, it is possible that there was another dowry or arrangement with the guardian of the boy that she would get her own cash dowry back to remarry, and just sign off her widow's portion once the son was grown up.



Husband #2 was an estate holder with extensive land. The son is only 3 years old. The cash money dowry is being held for this son then. This would mean the land all goes to the son also when his mother dies.


See above for the cash dowry. Also, the ELDEST son, so the son from the first marriage, gets all the inherited lands coming from the mother's side. Might not be any, but just clarifying it here.



Husband #3 who is the player knight then gets to only enjoy the profits of the dower for the duration of their marriage and any offspring from this union will not gain from it. Other than being blood related to an important estate holder.


Other than what Husband #3 manages to put aside etc. Which, given that it is a dower of apparently wealthy estate holder is nothing to sneeze at.



Oh hell, this previous child thing brought up another issue with another player knight.

Player Knight 2 ended up being pressured into marriage with a slightly wild pagan lady who is a daughter of an estate holder. He slipped and the lady got pregnant. She was already considered "spoiled" for having a young son, whose father she refuses to name, but claims is a famous knight of the realm. The dowry was 11£ land and 11£ money. Unknown to everyone the father of the child is not hiding out, but actually on a quest, doesn't know of the child and will return in 7 years. He will claim the boy as his own and legitimize him as his heir. At this point PK2 has two sons with his wife. What happens with the dowry?

My players would be happy to be pressured into marrying an heiress like that. :)

I assume the son was born out of wedlock and the lady is unmarried, since you mentioned being 'spoiled' and her refusal to name the father? That means the son is a bastard and not entitled to anything at all, save by the will of the liege lord. The PK2's sons, safely born in wedlock, take precedence over the bastard, even if he is later legitimized. He has no claim on his mother's manor or dowry, but presumably, if the father is a famous knight, he will be getting some inheritance from there. Legitimizing a bastard is NOT trivial, but since it is an NPK, you can handwave it happening 'off stage'.