I'm trying to look into the Pendragon Lineage further back. Anyone got any good sources?

I understand it's quite relative, and I'm not necessarily looking for perfect canon here, just something interesting.

* Uther' father should be Constantinus (The Just), married to Ivoire (?)
* Constantinus father should be Magnus Maximus?
* Where does Constantine the Great come in? He becomes emperor around 306, that could mean he is either Magnus father or at most grandfather?
* Who was Constantine the Greats father?
* What is the correlations with King Coel? I found some interesting bits where someone named Constantine was married to King Coels daughter. King Coel was the king of britain after having killed the former king Asclepiodotus. This is interesting, because it means that the Pendragon has both a british (cymric) and roman pedigree to the imperial line. They give brith to a son who grows up to become Constantine the Great. (what's UP with all the constantines?)
* Who would then be this Constantines father? According to the story I found he was a roman senator.

So with the above?

Constantine
Constantine the Great
Magnus Maximus
Constantine the Just
Uther
Arthur


I've starting building a family tree:
http://www.familyecho.com/?p=QP6P0&c=opfaznrfl&f=627122104377515063

Asclepiodotus appears in medieval British legend as a native king of Britain. Geoffrey of Monmouth's History of the Kings of Britain (1136) portrays him as a duke of Cornwall who is raised to the kingship in opposition to Allectus, a Roman who oppressed the people of Britain.[4] He defeats and kills Allectus near London, and besieges the rest of his forces in the city. The Romans eventually surrender on condition of safe conduct out of Britain, which Asclepiodotus is willing to grant, but his allies the Venedoti attack them and cut off their heads, which are thrown into the river Gallobroc.[5] Asclepiodotus is then officially crowned king, and rules justly for ten years. However, his rule is contemporary with the persecutions of Christians under Diocletian, and Geoffrey places the martyrdom of Saint Alban at this time. In response to these atrocities, Coel, duke of Colchester, leads a revolt against him, kills him, and takes his crown.

from wikipedia

(Bryt) Brutus ................... 23yrs ..c.1104 - 1O81BC
(Lloegr) Locrinus ................. 10yrs ..c.1081 - 1871BC
Gwendolen (Oueen) ........ 15yrs ..c.1071 - 1058BC
Maddan ................... 48yrs ..c.1056 - 1016BC
Mempriclus ............... 2Oyrs ..c.1016 - 996BC
Ebraucus ................. 39yrs ..c. 906 - 957BC
Brutus Greenshield ....... 12yrs ..c. 957 - 945BC
Leil ..................... 25yrs ..c. 945 - 920BC
Hudibras ................. 39yrs ..c. 920 - 881BC
Bladud ................... 20yrs ..c. 881 - 861BC
(Llyr) Leir ..................... 60yrs ..c. 861 - 801BC
(Creiddylad) Cordelia (Oueen) ......... 5yrs ..c. 801 - 796BC
Marganus I ............... 2yrs ..c. 796 - 794BC **ruled
Cunedagius ............... 35yrs ..c. 796 - 761BC *jointly
RivaIlo .............. c. 18yrs ..c. 761 - 743BC
Gurgustius ........... c. 20yrs ..c. 743 - 723BC
Sisillius I .......... c. 20yrs ..c. 723 - 703BC
Iago ................. c. 2Oyrs ..c. 703 - 683BC
Kimarcus ............. c. 20yrs ..c. 683 - 663BC
Gorboduc ............. c. 20yrs ..c. 683 - 663BC
Civil war period ..... c. 203yrs ..c. 643 - 400BC
Pinner ............... c. 10yrs ..c. 440 - 430BC
Cloten ............... c. 10yrs ..c. 430 - 420BC
Dunvallo Moimutius ....... 40yrs ..c. 420 - 380BC
Belinus ............. c. 6yrs ..c. 380 - 374BC
Gurguit ............. c. 5yrs ..c. 374 - 369BC
Guithelin ........... c. 6yrs ..c. 369 - 363BC
Marcia (Q. and Wid.). c. 11yrs ..c. 369 - 358BC
Sisillius II ........ c. 8yrs ..c. 358 - 352BC
Kinarius ............ c. 5yrs ..c. 352 - 347BC
Danius .............. c. 6yrs ..c. 347 - 341BC
Morvidus ............ c. 5yrs ..c. 341 - 336BC
Gorbonianus ......... c. 6yrs ..c. 336 - 330BC
Archgallo ........... c. 4yrs ..c. 33O - 326BC (deposed
(Elidyr) Elidurus ............ c. 5yrs ..c. 326 - 321BC (abdica.
Archgallo ................ 10yrs ..c. 321 - 311BC (restor.
retook crown) Elidurus ............ c. 5yrs ..c. 311 - 306BC (deposed
Ingenius .................. 7yrs ..c. 306 - 299BC **ruled
(Peredyr) Peredurus ........... c. 10yrs ..c. 3O6 - 296BC *jointly
retook crown) Elidurus .................. 5yrs ..c. 296 - 291BC (restor)
Son of Gorbonianus .. c. 2yrs ..c. 291 - 289BC
Marganus II ......... c. 5yrs ..c. 289 - 284BC
Enniaunus ................. 6yrs ..c. 284 - 278BC
Idvallo ............. c. 5yrs ..c. 278 - 273BC
Runo ................ c. 6yrs ..c. 273 - 267BC
Gerennus............. c. 5yrs ..c. 267 - 262BC
Catellus ............ c. 6yrs ..c. 262 - 256BC
Millus .............. c. 5yrs ..c. 256 - 251BC
Porrex .............. c. 6yrs ..c. 251 - 245BC
Cherin .............. c. 5yrs ..c. 245 - 240BC
Fulgenius ........... c. 6yrs ..c. 24O - 234BC
Edadus .............. c. 5yrs ..c. 234 - 229BC
Andragius ........... c. 6yrs ..c. 229 - 223BC
Urianus ............. c. 5yrs ..c. 223 - 218BC
Eliud ............... c. 6yrs ..c. 218 - 212BC
Cledaucus ........... c. 5yrs ..c. 212 - 207BC
Clotenus ............ c. 6yrs ..c. 207 - 201BC
Gurgintius .......... c. 5yrs ..c. 201 - 196BC
Merianus ............ c. 6yrs ..c. 196 - 190BC
Bledudo ............. c. 5yrs ..c. 190 - 185BC
Cap ................. c. 6yrs ..c. 185 - 179BC
Oenus ............... c. 5yrs ..c. 179 - 174BC
Sisillius III ....... c. 6yrs ..c. 174 - 168BC
Beldgabred .......... c. 5yrs ..c. 168 - 163BC
Archmail .............c. 6yrs ..c. 163 - 157BC
Eidol ................c. 5yrs ..c. 157 - 152BC
Redon ................c. 6yrs ..c. 152 - 146BC
Redechius ............c. 5yrs ..c. 146 - 141BC
Samuil ...............c. 6yrs ..c. 141 - 135BC
Penessil .............c. 5yrs ..c. 135 - 130BC
Pir ..................c. 6yrs ..c. 130 - 124BC
Capoir ...............c. 5yrs ..c. 124 - 119BC
Digueillius ..........c. 6yrs ..c. 119 - 113BC
Heli ..................... 40yrs ..c. 113 - 73BC
(Llud) Lud ..................c. 15yrs ..c. 73 - 58BC
(Caswallon) Cassivelaunus ........c. 20yrs ..c. 58 - 38BC
(Tasciovanus) Tenvantius ...........c. 20yrs ..c. 38 - 18BC
(Cunobelinus) Cymbeline ............c. 3Oyrs ..c. 18 - 12AD
Guiderius ............c. 31yrs ..c. 12 - 43AD
Arvirargus ...........c. 14yrs ..c. 43 - 57AD
Marius ...............c. 40yrs ..c. 57 - 97AD
Coilus ...............c. 40yrs ..c. 97 - 137AD
Lucius ...............c. 59yrs ..c. 137 - 186AD
Geta .................c. 35yrs ..c. 186 - 221AD
Bassianus ............c. 35yrs ..c. 221 - 256AD
Caruasius ............c. 40yrs ..c. 256 - 296AD
Asclepiodotus ............ 10yrs ..c. 296 - 306AD
Coel .................c. 3yrs ..c. 306 - 309AD
Constantius ..........c. 3yrs ..c. 309 - 312AD
Constantine I ........... 25yrs .... 312 - 337AD
(usurper) Octavius .............c. 5yrs ..c. 330 - 335AD (deposed
Octavius .............c. 13yrs ..c. 335 - 348AD (restor)
Maximianus ...........c. 14yrs ..c. 348 - 362AD
Caradocus ............c. 13yrs ..c. 362 - 375AD
Dionotus .............c. 14yrs ..c. 375 - 389AD
Gracianus ............c. 13yrs ..c. 389 - 402AD
Constantine II .......c. 18yrs ..c. 402 - 420AD
Constans .............c. 17yrs ..c. 420 - 437AD
Vortigern ............c. 18yrs ..c. 437 - 455AD (deposed
(Guorthemer) Vortimer .............c. 5yrs ..c. 455 - 460AD
Vortigern ............c. 20yrs ..c. 460 - 480AD (restor)
Aurellus Ambrosius ...c. 21yrs ..c. 480 - 501AD
Uther Pendragon ......c. 20yrs ..c. 501 - 521AD
Arthur ...............c. 21yrs ..c. 521 - 542AD
Constantine III .......... 4yrs ..c. 542 - 546AD
Aurellius Conanus ........ 3yrs ..c. 546 - 549AD
Vortiporius ..........c. 1yr ..c. 549 - 550AD
(Maelgwn) Malgo ................c. 5yrs ..c. 550 - 555AD
Keredic ..............c. 8yrs ..c. 555 - 563AD
3 unnamed kings ......c. 53yrs ..c. 563 - 616AD
Cadvan ................... 9yrs .... 616 - 625AD
Cadwallo ................. 8yrs .... 625 - 633AD
Cadwallader ............. 10yrs .... 633 - 643AD (plague
Court fled to Brittany .. 11yrs .... 643 - 654AD & famine
(restored) Cadwallader ............. 10yrs .... 654 - 664AD
Yvor ................ c. 39yrs .... 664 - 703AD **ruled
Yni ................. c. 40yrs .... 604 - 704AD *jointly

This looks like the king list from HRB by Geoffrey of Monmouth (he doesn't give years, those are coming from somewhere else and DO NOT match KAP). It is NOT a genealogy, exactly.

For instance, Constantine the Great's mother is Coel's daughter, but Constantin's (Constantine II in the above list) mother is the daughter of Octavius, Duke of the Wissei (shades of Vortigern, the Earl of the Gewissi, in the same book), and there is no mention of Octavius being related to Coel and definitely not to Constantine the Great. Hence, we can be almost absolutely sure that the Pendragons are not related to Constantine the Great. Maximianus, while a Roman, is not from the house of Constantine the Great, either.

About the only certainty we have for the pre-Vortigern generation is that Constantin's brother is named Aldroenus, High King of Brittany.

Okay, so let's try and work things out. Ignoring the earlier stuff, our earliest confirmed date is Constantin dying in 440. His namesake, Constantine the Great, defeated Maxentius at Milvian Bridge in 312, so those two dates exist as controls for us. So then:

1) The first event after Maxentius's death is Octavius, Duke of the Wisseans, rising up against Rome. Geoffrey doesn't say when this happens, since he rarely gives specific timeframes, so for the sake of the argument I'm going to assume this takes place during one of Constantine's wars with Licinius, hence why Constantine didn't deal with the matter personally. This would have been in either 316-317 or 324 - the later seems more likely to me given that Trahern and his brothers have embedded themselves into Roman politics by this time. Either way Trahern leads three legions and lands at "Kaerperis" (Portchester, according to at least one translation I've seen), but is defeated by Octavius close to the White City, and flees to ... Caledonia for some odd reason. Trahern then raids Westmoreland, which maps more or less to KAP Rheged, so I'm willing to bet he was based not in Caledonia proper (as KAP defines it), but in Cambenet, and Carduel more specifically. So then Octavius and Trahern have another battle, and this time Trahern wins so overwhelmingly that Octavius flees to Norway and the court of King Gombert. Trahern rules for a time, but then is killed by the magistrate of "a certain privileged town" who was an Octavian partisan. Octavius returns, and he "possessed the kingdom until the reign of Gratian and Valentinian." Now, given Trahern's relation with Constantine, it's unlikely Octavius could have had him murdered and gotten away with it, so the most likely explanation is that this occurs after Constantine dies and the empire is argued over by his surviving sons - at the earliest 337, but 340, when Constantine II (the notional ruler of Britain) is killed by his brother Constans is more likely. Geoffrey doesn't mention which Valentinian he's talking about, so Octavius could have died at any point in Gratian's reign. So the preliminary timeline is:

312: Constantine defeats Maxentius at Milvian Bridge and converts to Christianity. His uncles, including Trahern, ingratiate themselves into Roman society.
324: Constantine begins his second and final war with Licinius. Octavius of the Wisseans revolts. Trahern is dispatched to Britain, but defeated near the White City and flees to Cambenet.
~325: Trahern defeats Octavius and drives him from Britain. He rules as High King in Constantine's name.
337: Constantine dies and the Empire is divided in thrain. Constantine II holds suzerainty over Britain.
340: Constantine II marches on Italy to eliminate his brother Constans, only to be killed himself. Trahern is assassinated and Octavius returns from Norway to take the crown.

2) Magnus Maximus, who Geoffrey calls Maximian, is described by Geoffrey as a half-roman son of Trahern's brother Leolin. I have seen records that say Maximus himself claimed descent from Constantine. All the historical record says is that Maximus was a nephew of Count Theodosius and he was born between 335 and 340. He traveled with Theodosius to Britain to put down the Great Conspiracy of 367, but Geoffrey focuses on Maximus second trip to Britain in the 380s. We know Maximus declared himself emperor and invaded Gaul in 383. As Geoffrey states that he had ruled Britain for five years at this point, that would mean he married Elen of the Hosts in 378. After this, Maximus's reign is well recorded enough that we can fit Geoffrey's account into it:

367: The Great Conspiracy. The Attacotti ally with other barbarian tribes, primarily the Saxons and Irish, and ravage Britain. A presumably glum Octavius requests Roman assistance, and Count Theodosius arrives to put the Conspiracy down, with a young Magnus Maximus in tow. Maximus presumably marries his first wife, Ceindrich (mother of Victor, Owain, and possibly an unnamed daughter who married Ennodius, Proconsul of Africa), around this time.
378: Magnus Maximus, by this point a widowed senator, returns to Britain at the invitation of Mauricius, son of Duke Caradoc of Cornwall. Maximus marries Octavius's daughter Elen of the Hosts, who will give him two more sons (Constantine and Anwn) and two daughters (Severa and Gratianna). He gets into conflict with Octavius's nephew Conan Meriadoc, but the two reconcile. Octavius presumably dies around this time, leaving the throne to Maximus.
383: Maximus proclaims himself Emperor, lands in Gaul, and kills Emperor Gratian. Conan joins him and is granted rulership over Armorica. Conan asks for the hand of Ursula, daughter of Duke Dionatus of Cornwall (it is unclear as to why Dionatus and not Mauricius succeeded Caradoc), in marriage.
~384: Ursula lands in Europe with her attendants, but is captured by Guanius, King of the Huns, and she and her ladies are put to death when she refuses to marry him. Guanius allies with Melga, King of the Picts, and the two ravage Britain with the tacit support of Valentinian II. Maximus, fearing a second Great Conspiracy, sends Gratianus Municeps to defend Britain. Municeps defeats the two and drives them into Ireland.
388: Theodosius I, son of Count Theodosius and Eastern Emperor, defeats and kills Magnus Maximus. Victor is strangled by Arbogast. Gratianus Municeps is crowned High King and presumably negotiates the safe return of the remaining Maximi, but Guanius and Melga return with their armies and Irish and Scandinavian allies.

3) So there's no tradition I can find connecting Constantin to Maximus. The association of him with Maximus's son Constantine seems to be an invention of modern literature with no basis in folklore, other than Gildas's comment that Ambrosius's father "wore the purple." That aside, there's no tradition or claims linking Constantine III, Ambrosius Aurelianus, or Uther Pendragon to Magnus Maximus. In any event, Municeps is killed shortly after he crowns himself, and Britain exists in a sort of limbo until Guethelin's entreaties lead to Constantin arriving. Now, here's my argument - Constantin is NOT the same man as Constantine III in KAP. Geoffrey gives him a reign of ten years before he is murdered, which means that under KAP's timeline he came to the throne in 430, while Constantine III's death is well attested to 411. They cannot be the same men. So here's my argument:

388: Municeps is murdered by the people of Britain, who desire the strong rule of Theodosius to put an end to their strife. But as Gildas explains, "the island was still Roman in name, but not in law or custom."
~400-411: Local strongmen come to power and refer to themselves as Emperors and High Kings, but leave little impression. Marcus, Gratian II, Constantine III - all boldly arrive on the scene and collapse just as quick. By this point the only true authorities are the local warlords and petty kings (such as Renn of Salisbury).
430: Guethelin, Metropolitan of Londinium and perhaps the only man who still has influence throughout Logres, offers the throne to Aldroen, "fourth king from Conan Meriadoc." Aldroen declines but passes on the offer to his brother Constantin, who arrives in Totnes, gathers the youth of Logres and Armorica together, and defeats the barbarians ravaging the island. He is proclaimed High King at Silchester after this victory. Of his sons, Constans is sent to a monastery in the White City to become a monk, while Aurelius and Uther are given to Guethelin for education.
439: Battle of Carlion. The last remnants of Guanius's and Melga's forces are defeated.
440: Constantin is killed. See the KAP rulebook for what happens after.

I agree that Usurper Constantine III and Constantin of KAP are not the same person.

In KAP, though, Constantin becomes the High King in 415, not 430, although you have the death date correct (440, as far as KAP is concerned).

I agree that Usurper Constantine III and Constantin of KAP are not the same person.

In KAP, though, Constantin becomes the High King in 415, not 430, although you have the death date correct (440, as far as KAP is concerned).

Hm, where does it say he was crowned in 415? The only record I've seen is that he created the first knights in 431, which I took as evidence for my own calculations (along with the ages of his sons)

Hm, where does it say he was crowned in 415? The only record I've seen is that he created the first knights in 431, which I took as evidence for my own calculations (along with the ages of his sons)

KAP 5.1, p. 10:
The year is 485 Anno Domini. About seventy years
ago, when your grandfather was alive, the Supreme Collegi-
um or High Council of Britain chose a native leader, known
as Emperor Constantin, to rule the island.

Saxons!, p. 31:
415: The British convene a “Supreme Collegium” of all
their leaders and clerics to forge an emergency govern-
ment. The Collegium offers the crown to Aldronius of
Armorica, son of Magnus Maximus, who cedes it t o
Constantin, his younger brother. Constantin sails from
Armorica with 2,000 soldiers, marries a British princess,
and becomes chief vicar.

Book of Uther, p. 23, The House of Pendragon:
Constantin
b. circa 375
King 415–440


Also, your 431 is in error. This is not when the FIRST knights were knighted. This is when your GRANDFATHER was knighted. The paragraphs below states that Constantin selected one man in thousand as a knight when he became the high king, of which your great-grandfather was one. And then, once your grandfather grew up (X years later), he was knighted in 431.

KAP 5.1, p. 45:
The high council of Briton nobles, called the Supreme
Collegium, debated and at last chose a leader, struggling to
raise an army of their own. The man they chose, named
Constantin, a Briton of wealth and renown, then chose one
man in a thousand to be a military leader — an equites as
they say in Latin, or in our tongue, a knight.
Among those first native knights was your great-grand-
father. His first son, your grandfather, grew up in a dan-
gerous land studying the ways of weapons and of warfare.
Your grandfather was knighted in 431 by Count Reginald
of Salisbury and proudly took his place in the army of King
Constantin.

KAP 5.1, p. 10:
Also, your 431 is in error. This is not when the FIRST knights were knighted. This is when your GRANDFATHER was knighted. The paragraphs below states that Constantin selected one man in thousand as a knight when he became the high king, of which your great-grandfather was one. And then, once your grandfather grew up (X years later), he was knighted in 431.

KAP 5.1, p. 45:
The high council of Briton nobles, called the Supreme
Collegium, debated and at last chose a leader, struggling to
raise an army of their own. The man they chose, named
Constantin, a Briton of wealth and renown, then chose one
man in a thousand to be a military leader — an equites as
they say in Latin, or in our tongue, a knight.
Among those first native knights was your great-grand-
father. His first son, your grandfather, grew up in a dan-
gerous land studying the ways of weapons and of warfare.
Your grandfather was knighted in 431 by Count Reginald
of Salisbury and proudly took his place in the army of King
Constantin.

Interesting, so quick question related to this: what then was the role of Ambrosius in the institution of knighthood? My understanding was that he was responsible for introducing it. If Constantin is being credited with appointing the (Roman) equites to divide up military leadership, and those equites are later known as knights, then I can think of two solutions:

1. Ambrosius brought the term "knight" into use, and recognized the existing equite descendants as such, settling along the way land disputes.

and/or

2. Ambrosius brought the custom of "homage" into play and spread it through the equites, who were known as knights. Knights became recognized for their oath of homage. Ambrosius also recognized land claims, but this was separate (King of Summerland, for example, was not a knight).

Any insight?

--Khanwulf

Huh, so Pendragon follows the "Magnus Maximus is Constantin's father" line? Alright, fair enough. In that case I'd have Aldroen/Aldronius replace Anwn in the Maximi family tree.

My reading of BotW is that Aurelius Ambrosius is the one who organized the patchwork of titles and local privileges and rules into a more coherent whole. So Barons, Counts and Dukes with their titles, oaths of Homage, and duties and rights are formalised under him. So closer to your point 2. Also, Aurelius (in HRB) seems to bring a dose of Armorican (Brittany) cavalry to help him against Hengest's Saxons, so that might be another 'change' that Aurelius introduces.

That being said, I am... well not happy... lets say aware that there have been inconsistencies in the publications as far as 'knight' is concerned, sometimes even within the same book!

I already referred to KAP 5.1 earlier, which states that Constantin makes the first knights.

But in Book of the Warlord, we get what seems to be an alternative account, which is contradicted later within the same book:
p. 6: "Knight is a relatively new term in 485. It is a noble title granted by King Uther and the greater nobles to select mounted warriors who pay them homage."
p. 108, Salisbury Charter: "Sir Roderick[3], the son of Count Robyn called the Grand Knight"
p. 110, footnote 3 referring to the above: "He is a knight, dubbed by Aurelius Ambrosius and proudly among the earliest to receive that great honor. War proved the family prowess and secured its many ancient rights."

Now, from KAP 5.1 & The Marriage of Sir Roderick, we know that Roderick's father actually died in the Night of the Long Knives, 463. Thus, if he was known as 'The Great Knight', then 'Knight' must pre-exist both Aurelius and Uther. Even if that were not the case, it is absolutely inescapable that 'Knight' must predate King Uther's reign.

How do I solve this conundrum? Simply by saying that p. 6 "relatively new" means that it is new compared to dux and comes, which have a couple of centuries of precedent. I interpret p. 110 by saying that Roderick was one of the first to be dubbed by Aurelius Ambrosius PERSONALLY, and that was the great honor, not the knighthood itself. This allows me to keep things consistent with KAP 5.1.

Of course, I could see also a 'Reformist' branch of KAP canon, where it is preached that Knight is fully established by Aurelius when he comes to power and not a moment before. This would fit BotW without problems, and given that it would make knighthood to have happened in the previous generation, it certainly would be 'relatively new'. The King Uther on p. 6 simply refers to the current king and his noblemen, not implying that they were the introducers of this title. However, this hits face first into KAP 5.1 and makes a hash of the family history with its knights and manors. No, much easier to go with the more 'traditional' view. :P

I'm trying to look into the Pendragon Lineage further back. Anyone got any good sources?

Okay, given Morien's information, I can give some answers.




* Uther' father should be Constantinus (The Just), married to Ivoire (?)

In Pendragon, Uther's father's name is consistently spelled Constantin (although, as a properly Romanized figure, he would indeed have referred to himself as Constantinus). It took me a while to figure out Ivoire, before I finally found her mentioned as King Ban's sister by one 13th century Frenchman. I suppose to make the dates fit better you could move her back a generation and make her the sister or even aunt of King Lancelot, rather than his daughter.



* Constantinus father should be Magnus Maximus?

According to Pendragon, yes



* Where does Constantine the Great come in? He becomes emperor around 306, that could mean he is either Magnus father or at most grandfather?

Historically, Magnus Maximus claimed to be a grandson of Constantine, presumably through an otherwise unrecorded daughter (not impossible, given his birthdate, but unlikely). Geoffrey has him be a maternal cousin of Constantine instead (which strikes me as overcomplicating things, but whatever).



* Who was Constantine the Greats father?

Constantius the Pale



* What is the correlations with King Coel? I found some interesting bits where someone named Constantine was married to King Coels daughter. King Coel was the king of britain after having killed the former king Asclepiodotus. This is interesting, because it means that the Pendragon has both a british (cymric) and roman pedigree to the imperial line. They give brith to a son who grows up to become Constantine the Great. (what's UP with all the constantines?)

Geoffrey made St. Helena the daughter of Coel in his work. I should point out that like with Constantin and Constantine III, when it comes to Pendragon I assume King Coel is a different figure from Coel Hen, even if that wasn't Geoffrey's intention (I simply argue both men were named after King Coilius).

Also, be thankful Pendragon isn't adhering to the Harleian genealogies, where you're left with the impression that you couldn't throw a rock in 5th century Britain without hitting a man named Custennin or a woman named Elen.



* Who would then be this Constantines father? According to the story I found he was a roman senator.

Well, since we're already using one pseudo history - the Historia Augusta claims that Constantius's father Eutropius was a patrician from Roman Illyria, and names his mother as Claudia, a niece of Claudius II Gothicus (actual history is largely in agreement that Eutropius was a minor officer and that Constantius wasn't any different in origins than the other Illyrian "barracks emperors")



So with the above?

Constantine
Constantine the Great
Magnus Maximus
Constantine the Just
Uther
Arthur


If we're using every claim or connection it should be:

Constantius the Pale
Constantine the Great
Unnamed Daughter
Magnus Maximus/Macsen Wledig
Constantin/Constantinus
Uther Pendragon
Arthur Pendragon
(Mordred)

Huh, so Pendragon follows the "Magnus Maximus is Constantin's father" line? Alright, fair enough. In that case I'd have Aldroen/Aldronius replace Anwn in the Maximi family tree.

Pendragon follows HRB genealogy as far as I know, yes.

King Coel (living late 3rd century AD, legendary & 100% not historical), the grandfather of Constantine the Great, and Coel Hen (living around late 4th, early 5th century AD, likely historical) are two totally different people, even though Coel Hen might have been Geoffrey's inspiration for King Coel in HRB. This is true even in Pendragon, which happily mixes legends and history. I mean, the whole premise of Pendragon is focused on anachronistic knights in plate armor having tournaments and fine amour. :)

Pendragon follows HRB genealogy as far as I know, yes.

Well, my point was that in Geoffrey's work, Aldroen and Constantin aren't stated to be Maximus's sons, only that Aldroen is "fourth king from Conan Meriadoc" (which doesn't require a blood connection to Meriadoc, either). Let me double check my translation...

Okay, Guethelin's missive does refer to the "Crown of Constantine [the Great] and Maximian [Magnus Maximus]" as Aldroen's "since the right your ancestors had to it" now belongs to Aldroen, so there is an argument to be made that Geoffrey intended the Pendragons to be descended from Magnus Maximus, it's just odd he decided to be so vague about it when he usually shows no hesitation in making such connections, especially given how the kings of Gwent (where Geoffrey was educated and spent most of his early career) were pretty open about claiming descent from "Macsen Wledig."



King Coel (living late 3rd century AD, legendary & 100% not historical), the grandfather of Constantine the Great, and Coel Hen (living around late 4th, early 5th century AD, likely historical) are two totally different people, even though Coel Hen might have been Geoffrey's inspiration for King Coel in HRB. This is true even in Pendragon, which happily mixes legends and history. I mean, the whole premise of Pendragon is focused on anachronistic knights in plate armor having tournaments and fine amour.

Want to know how things can be even more confusing? I'm looking at the KAP4 description of Brittany right now, and it decided to further complicate the backstory by making Conon Meriadoc a figure from pre-Roman times, unconnected to Magnus Maximus at all!

Well, my point was that in Geoffrey's work, Aldroen and Constantin aren't stated to be Maximus's sons, only that Aldroen is "fourth king from Conan Meriadoc" (which doesn't require a blood connection to Meriadoc, either). Let me double check my translation...

Okay, Guethelin's missive does refer to the "Crown of Constantine [the Great] and Maximian [Magnus Maximus]" as Aldroen's "since the right your ancestors had to it" now belongs to Aldroen, so there is an argument to be made that Geoffrey intended the Pendragons to be descended from Magnus Maximus, it's just odd he decided to be so vague about it when he usually shows no hesitation in making such connections, especially given how the kings of Gwent (where Geoffrey was educated and spent most of his early career) were pretty open about claiming descent from "Macsen Wledig."


Want to know how things can be even more confusing? I'm looking at the KAP4 description of Brittany right now, and it decided to further complicate the backstory by making Conon Meriadoc a figure from pre-Roman times, unconnected to Magnus Maximus at all!

You are right, I just took Saxons! at its word. Checking back, in my translation it says 'grandsires and great-grandsires' instead of ancestors, which might imply that Aldroen is the grandson of Magnus Maximus. However, then we come to our KAP timeline issues (even with the grandson, let alone further removed, although as you say, nothing states that he would be fourth generation descendant of Conan, just that he is the 4th king):
HRB states that 5 years* after Maximus married Octavius' daughter Helena, he invaded Armorica. So the marriage would have taken place in 378**, and the invasion 383. So the very oldest that his eldest son can be in 415 is 36 (marriage in 378, birth in 379). It is just barely, barely possible to squeeze in a grandson who would be 18 by the time, but that would, by necessity, mean that his younger brother is at the very best 17, likely younger than that. No, it makes much more sense, in KAP timeline, to have Aldronius/Aldroen be Maximus' eldest son, and hence in his early thirties; a proven king, solidly in control of his Kingdom. And this would make his little brother, Constantin, someone in his mid-to-late twenties***, again, a man grown, not a stripling.

* = Well, you can add maybe a year of wiggle room there to allow Conan to stage his rebellion, since the five years is counted after Maximus crushes that. HRB doesn't state how many years that was, but I can't see it being like 5 years.
** = This by the way means that BoU is likely in error when it states Constantin was born in 375. But if you take THAT date at face value, it is obvious that Constantin has to be Maximus' son, not grandson, anyway.
*** = If BoU's birthdate of 375 is correct, then Constantin would be already an older man in his 40 before he comes to Britain and marries, which I find a bit unsatisfactory; why wait so long to marry? Also, he would be already 65 by the time he gets murdered in 440. One would imagine that he would have taken some better steps at securing his succession if he is already getting ready to croak from old age. Whereas if he was born, say, 485, he would have been just 30, so still conceivably looking for a suitable match, and at 55 in 440, he probably could have expected to stay on the throne long enough for Aurelius to grow up, hence explaining why he didn't mind Constans' unworldliness.

By the way, BoU has another potential conflict with HRB when it comes to the bloodline: at least by my reading, Constantin was killed 10 years after Uther's birth (or when he was given to Guithelin's care). Since Constantin was killed in 440, this should have happened in 430, whereas BoU gives Aurelius' birth at 433 and Uther's at 436. Then again, even that makes Uther already close to 50 at 485, so I would not wish to age him any more than we have to, and I am happy with that birthdate for him, even if it contradicts HRB. Funnily enough, HRB contradicts itself a few paragraphs later, referring to Constans' reign: "His brethren, moreover, the two children, to wit, Uther Pendragon and Aurelius Ambrosius, were not yet out of the cradle, and incapable of the rule of the kingdom." If they were not out of the cradle, they must have been born just the previous year (for AA) and the same year (for Uther). But naturally, would have had to have been sired by Constantin while he was still living, hence 439 and 440... Which means that the 10 years should refer back to when Constantin took power, not to Uther's birth, which then would lead to a conflict with Constans, born after the crowning, being old enough to rule as King when Constantin dies... And this is why we can't rely solely for HRB, but mine it for ideas and clues and then try to contruct a coherent narrative for KAP history. :P

I've not read the entire thread here
But according to Geoffrey of Monmouth, the Pendragon line is descended from the royal house of Conanus Meriadoc, nephew of King Octavius, a Duke of the Gewessi who usurps the throne of Britain from Constantine the Great, loses it, then regains it again.
King Aldroenus of Brittainy, four generation from Conanus, was offered the throne of Britain, but deferred to his brother Constantine instead

For Khanwulf's questions:
I have decided that Ambrosius brought the institution of homage to Britain and rearranged the political order, instituting the counties as well
According to legend, which holds sway in KAP (hence the validity of Geoffrey of Monmouth's version of the "Roman Occupation, inc. the above mentioned Octavius) and as stated in Perceforest (a pre-history of Pagan Britain recently made available, and which I am only now reading) knighthood was really, really ancient and included Homer of Troy, Alexander the Great (who appears in Perceforest!), and Julius Ceasar were all knights, as well as the Biblical heroes Joshua, David and Judas Maccabeus. Thus the institution of knighthood was ancient!

I've not read the entire thread here
But according to Geoffrey of Monmouth, the Pendragon line is descended from the royal house of Conanus Meriadoc, nephew of King Octavius, a Duke of the Gewessi who usurps the throne of Britain from Constantine the Great, loses it, then regains it again.
King Aldroenus of Brittainy, four generation from Conanus, was offered the throne of Britain, but deferred to his brother Constantine instead


With all due respect, Greg, it doesn't say that explicitly:



BOOK VI

CHAPTER IV

After taking counsel hereupon, Guethelin, Archbishop of London, passed across the Channel into Lesser Britain, which at that time was called Armorica or Letavia, to seek help of their brethren oversea. At that time Aldroen was the King thereof, the fourth from Conan, unto whom, as hath been said, Maximian had given the kingdom. Aldroen seeing a man so reverend, received him with honour and asked of him wherefore he had come. Unto whom Guethelin:

'Your Highness ere now hath been acquainted with the misery—a misery, in truth, that may well move thee unto tears—which we, thy Britons, have suffered from the time that Maximian did despoil our island of all her warriors, and commanded that the realm which thou dost possess—and long in peace mayst thou possess
the same—should be by them inhabited. For all they of the neighbour islands of the province have risen up against us, the poverty-stricken remnant of our name, and have so made void our island, of old replenished with abundant wealth of every kind, as that all the nations thereof are utterly destitute of the staff of food, save only such meat as they can kill by hunting to stay their hunger; nor was there any to help it, for not one strong man, not a single warrior was left unto us of our own people. For the Romans have conceived a weariness of us, and have utterly denied us their succour. Bereft of all other hope, we have now thrown us upon thy mercy, beseeching thee to grant us thy protection, and to defend the kingdom, of right thine own, from the incursions of the barbarians. For, if it be that thou thyself are unwilling, what other is there that Ought of right to be crowned with the diadem of Constantine and Maximian, the diadem that hath been worn by thy grandsires and great-grandsires? Make ready thy fleets and come! Behold, into thy hands do I deliver the kingdom of Britain!'


Important statements from the above:
"At that time Aldroen was the King thereof, the fourth from Conan"
I'd argue that this is: Fourth King from Conan (so probably the fifth king, if Conan is the first). Whether he is related or not is left open. To read this that he is 4th generation descendant from Conan would require a gap of about 100 years between them, which is not supported by the other happenings in HRB. For instance, Guanius and Melga are still active, which they certainly wouldn't be if there would be a 100 year gap between their first appearance with relation to Conan's bride, Ursula.

"what other is there that Ought of right to be crowned with the diadem of Constantine and Maximian, the diadem that hath been worn by thy grandsires and great-grandsires?"
Conan nor his direct line of ancestors were Kings of the Britons: he was the nephew of Octavian, who himself was an usurper. Granted, a further line might connect him to the ancient kings (likely, even). But this implies grandfather or great-grandfather, and even if Aldroen would be Conan's son (and why is this NOT mentioned explicitly if this is so???), his grandfather for sure was not the King of the Britons, and very unlikely the great-grandsire, either (since the previous British one was Coel Hen, who would have been King over 100 years earlier; I am pretty sure Trahern is out of the running, too, since no connection between Conan and Trahern is mentioned). (One would have to check if this distinction was in the original Latin version. jmberry said that his translation said 'ancestors', which would make this point less solid.)

EDIT:
Like I mentioned in a previous post, reading the latter as:
Grandsire = Maximian / Magnus Maximus
Great-Grandsire = Octavian
would work perfectly, but there would be a problem with the KAP timeline in that case, since there would not be time for two generations to pass.
Making Aldroen the son of Maximian, as in Saxons!, works too, by the way... if you assume that Octavian is a (bastard?) son of King Coel. Because then you would have:
Grandsire = Octavian
Great-Grandsire = Coel
And the reason just Constantine and Maximian are mentioned is because the first is 'the Great' and the second is quite clear in the recent memory, especially if Aldroen is his son, too. Also, since Maximian is already mentioned by name, no need to reference him as 'your father', too, since that would be repetition.

EDIT 2:
I found a Latin version, unfortunately in picture form, so I am trying to transcribe it:
"Regnabat tunc in illa aldorenus a conano quart cui maximianus regnu illud donauerat ficut ia supradictu est"
"quis alius re inui to dyademare constantini et maximiani debeat coronari cum aui tui atque[?] paui[proaui?] ipo insigniti fuerent"

Assuming the above is correct, then "aui tui atque proaui" does look like "your grandfathers and their fathers" or something like that. Of course, the English translation provided earlier is talking about grandsires, plural, which would be a problem in any case, unless the repetition is more of a poetic way of saying 'ancestors', like jmberry suggested.

Anyway, I think I got too deep into this rabbit hole already. Especially since we already have a statement in Saxons! what the relationship is in KAP. Good enough for me. :P

Well, so much of this is open to interpretation.
I appreciate your input, but most importantly I missed that bit in Saxons!
We'll keep Aldronius and Constantin as sons of Macsen Wledig.

Well, so much of this is open to interpretation.
I appreciate your input, but most importantly I missed that bit in Saxons!
We'll keep Aldronius and Constantin as sons of Macsen Wledig.

Works for me! :)

But, since I had time to think about this a bit more, let me just add in below...

Aldronius
Paternal line: Maximian (father, king), Leoline (grandfather, not a king), X (great-grandfather, father of Coel, not a king?)
Maternal line: Helena (mother), Octavius (grandfather, king), Y (great-grandfather, unknown, not a king?)

However, if we presume that Maximian actually has Constantine's blood in him, too, via his mother (in order to keep Leoline as his father)... then you could trace Aldronius' descent like this, too:
Maximian (father) - grandmother - Constantine the Great (great-grandfather, king)
The only problem here is that it would be an great-granduncle - great-grandniece marriage, since Leoline would be uncle to the first Helena, thus granduncle to Constantine and great-granduncle to Constantine's daughter.

So given everything, I put together this family tree:

http://www.familyecho.com/?p=START&c=zpt8pdg9sa&f=266522356508330794

Now, this isn't the tree I'd use in my personal game (I already made a thread about Arthur's sons to that effect, and as mentioned earlier in this thread I'd probably move Ivoire and King Lancelot's relation around a bit), but I think it does a good job of showing just how weirdly connected everyone is.

Some points:
- Leoline is not the son of King Coel, but brother.
- where did you get Constantin marrying Yvoire of Ganis?

Some points:
- Leoline is not the son of King Coel, but brother.

Sorry about the mistake

- where did you get Constantin marrying Yvoire of Ganis?
Well, she's mainly there because Gilmere's family tree also has her. I actually had to do some searching to find out who she was.

From what I understand, she only appears in Bauduin Butor's work on Arthur, who wrote Roman des fils du roi Constant in the 13th Century. It's generally accepted that Yvoire (or Ivoire) is actually Butor misreading writings mentioning Constans, who during this century was usually referred to as Maine or Ivoine ("The Monk"). Butor names Yvoire as the sister of King Ban, and he also adds in a romance between Aurelius (who he calls "Pandragus") and Ban's daughter Libanor - a romance that leads to the birth of Merlin!

That's obviously not the direction KAP went for Merlin, but ancestry websites which feature the Pendragons will usually include an "Yvoire ferch Llancelod" as Uther's mother. Barring a "Book of Vortigern" coming out anytime soon I guess it's ultimately up to the individual gamemaster what Constantin's wife was named and who she was related to, as both are very dead by 480.

You are right though, this is a massive rabbit hole to try and explore - I didn't even include that Gorlois is also a descendant of Magnus Maximus, or Ygraine's descent from Cunedda, or Kay being Vortimer's grandson! Granted, pretty much every famous person in Camelot could probably trace their descent to Brutus of Troy or Joseph of Arimathea - or both - but it can still get kind of mindbending to sit down and see who's related to who.

That's obviously not the direction KAP went for Merlin, but ancestry websites which feature the Pendragons will usually include an "Yvoire ferch Llancelod" as Uther's mother. Barring a "Book of Vortigern" coming out anytime soon I guess it's ultimately up to the individual gamemaster what Constantin's wife was named and who she was related to, as both are very dead by 480.


From HRB:
"They gave him also unto wife a damsel born of a noble Roman family whom Archbishop Guethelin had brought up, who in due course did bear unto him three sons, whose names were Constans, Aurelius Ambrosius and Uther Pendragon."

I find it very unlikely that this Ganis princess (note, NOT Roman, so a first contradiction there) would have been a ward of Guethelin in the strife-torn Britain. Furthermore, even if this is Lancelot the Elder, this would have been in 415 (as per KAP) and the girl would have been already of marriageable age, meaning she should have been born in late 390s, and hence Lancelot the Elder should have been born no later than late 370s. Lancelot the Younger is the grandson of Lancelot the Elder and is born in 507 (GPC). So, in order to get this to work, you would have to have Lancelot the Elder be around 70 when Ban is born (assuming late 440s) and Ban to be in his 60s when Lancelot is born. It is physically possible, but stretching credulity, especially since Ban is quite active in the battlefield in 510, too.



You are right though, this is a massive rabbit hole to try and explore - I didn't even include that Gorlois is also a descendant of Magnus Maximus, or Ygraine's descent from Cunedda, or Kay being Vortimer's grandson! Granted, pretty much every famous person in Camelot could probably trace their descent to Brutus of Troy or Joseph of Arimathea - or both - but it can still get kind of mindbending to sit down and see who's related to who.

It gets even worse since there are so many contradictory family trees, too. I think it is also part of the human psyche to want to connect all manner of things to one another. I mean, sometimes it makes sense: dynastic marriages happened all the time. Just look at some of the current monarchs of Europe: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/0c/ac/e4/0cace40149035b545197594bcf47eb15.jpg .

Sometimes, however, it gets silly. :P