Ok folks, here's another early bit line of questioning.

We know something about the parentage of Uther and Ambrosius--sure. But what has been identified for KAP purposes as:

1. the mother of Madoc?

2. What Madoc was doing up to 480 when he's presented to Uther and acknowledged?

3. Any spouses or significant others for Ambrosius? (Or was his Chaste just too high for fooling around?)

4. Related-- speculation on why Ambrosius sired no listed children? He was king for a while, certainly long enough to father an heir or heiress if he wanted to!

Speculation options follow:

Madoc is 21 in 480 (b. 459), and his mother was a noble Briton exiled during those terrible Saxon years. She may have remained in Brittany even after Ambrosius' invasion, having sufficiently settled or been confined to a nunnery. At the very least she kept the father of Madoc secret from her own family, who we could assume would have used their relation to the High King for some advantage. Alternative, they did use it to their advantage, but swore Ambrosius to secrecy and he obliged for reasons. In this last case Madoc was squired to someone trusted but sufficiently distant as to not be in Uther's face.

Ambrosius was too Chaste for flings, and too committed to a come-too-soon form of Romance to marry for crude procreation. So, he didn't, confident that Britain could pass into his brother's hands (and perhaps Madoc's, if he knew). This seems a bit at odd with his description as "moderate in all things" however; it's rather imprudent and naive. Naive is maybe not inappropriate for him, however.

Ambrosius married, but the lady was too old for children and produced none. He was too Chaste for flings. For this idea, I favor Roderick's mother, as she would have been proximate to his prefered area--which appears to be Salisbury given the foundation of the monastery there. I'm assuming Roderick's father died in the Treachery of the Long Knives for this, and could be wrong.

Ambrosius sired children, but sons received any lands on the continent he held, and the line died off thanks to the Franks before they could threaten Uther. Ditto any girls, only by the Anarchy. This seems a stretch, and I'd expect *someone* to trot out a supposed descendant if there were any, just to claim the kingship line.

Would appreciate any ideas!

--Khanwulf

I think that Ambrosius's childlessness (and apparent lack of a queen) makes more sense in the implied timeline in Geoffrey of Monmouth.

In it, Ambrosius is apparently king for only a year or two. He lands in Britain the very day after the meeting between Merlin and Vortigern, and quickly (probably only a matter of weeks or months) disposes of Vortigern and Hengist. He sets about re-ordering the country (having towns and churches built, etc.), only to quickly note the lack of a proper memorial to the Britons murdered by the Saxons at the Night of the Long Knives, leading to his sending for Merlin and, at Merlin's advice, obtaining the Giants' Dance from Ireland. Shortly after that (probably almost immediately after Merlin's installing the Giants' Dance on Salisbury Plain - we know at least what time of year he did it, since according to Geoffrey, it followed just after Ambrosius's Pentecost court - placing it in late spring or early summer), Pascent and GIlloman go to war wtih Ambrosius, and have him poisoned while Uther is fighting them.

These events in Geoffrey follow so quickly upon each other that I doubt Ambrosius could be imagined in his book as reigning more than a couple of years - with barely any time to arrange for a royal wedding to provide for the succession. (Probably if Pascent hadn't had Ambrosius poisoned, he'd have seen about choosing a queen once Pascent and Gilloman had been defeated, but until then, he seems to have lacked the opportunity. It's possible, of course, that the period between Hengist's defeat and Merlin's arrival to advise a memorial took longer than Geoffrey suggests - such a restoration project could not take place in just a couple of days - but still the impression is a short reign.

The "Pendragon" chronology stretches this out - having Ambrosius land a year after Vortigern and Merlin's meeting (and burn Vortigern up in his castle two years after that), then providing several more years after that (so that Ambrosius dies fourteen years after his landing) - making the failure to take a wife stranger than in Geoffrey's version. (The House of Pendragon does often make a poor show of providing for the succession, of course - most notoriously Constantin placing his eldest son in a monastery when his younger sons, Ambrosius and Uther, are still a long way from reaching their majority.) There are some advantages to this extending the years - in particular, it makes the image of Merlin as an old white-bearded man by Arthur's day more feasible - but it has the downside of giving Ambrosius plenty of time to take a wife, time that he does not use.

(I do suspect that some of the problem may stem from Ambrosius being in the story largely because he was spoken of so prominently by Gildas and Bede that Geoffrey of Monmouth had to put him in "The History of the Kings of Britain", so that those members of his audience who'd read those earlier works wouldn't question his absence. As the legend continued to develop, he occupies a smaller role - in the French Merlin romances, rechristened as "Pendragon", he becomes little more than an explanation for where Uther's famous nickname came from - and I've seen at least one modern children's retelling, by Blanche Winder, which omitted Ambrosius entirely and went straight from Vortigern to Uther. Were it not for the kindling of interest in "the historical Arthur/ Arthur dux bellorum", I think that Ambrosius would have dwindled even more into obscurity and oblivion - he seems more at home in the fifth century Britain of history than of romance and legend.)

As I mentioned in the Pendragon family tree thread, some of the romances do give Aurelius (well, Pandragus if you want to be pedantic) a lover in the form of Ban of Ganis's sister Libanor - granted, according to these same romances, she's his niece. These romances, by the way, are the earliest sources I can find of the "Merlin is Ambrosius Aurelianus's son" plot. In addition, a Jacobean play called the Birth of Merlin gives him a wife in the form of the Saxon princess Artesia, who appears to be a composite of Rowena and Eopa there.

These romances, by the way, are the earliest sources I can find of the "Merlin is Ambrosius Aurelianus's son" plot.

There was a version of it before Mary Stewart?

Thanks Merlyn, and I have read that thread jmberry. Seems that in terms of Ambrosius there's a great deal of wiggle-room created by the dating and events used by Pendragon. Until we get the Book of Sires everything is speculation and YPWV, here.

Full disclosure: my extremely slow writing campaign, starting in 467, is now immediately at the fall of Caer Leon. So I'm combing through the books to see who's around, doing what, siding with Ambrosius vs. Vortigern, and looking forward to the blank areas afterward. I think there are some major issues with the "Merlin as Ambrosius' son" plot, not the least being that if it was known at all Uther would have looked on him with great Suspicion instead of Trust. (Not that the barons would have been happy with a druid as king, and it might have disqualified him--the Narrative could swing either way.)

A Saxon princess seems highly unlikely, in the sense that Ambrosius *just* gets done crushing Hengest the father of Rowena, and Vortigern the Bad King who let the pagans in, and for him to turn around and marry even a baptized Saxon would unhinge things terribly. Again, you could make it work if desired: marry to Christianize a population (perhaps the East Angles, who were not from what I read part of Hengest's army, "pacified" by Octa's surrender). Have issue but children die. *shrug*

Ambrosius is an interesting character--he seems to have been only successful up to a point, and less extreme in personality and action than his brother Uther and certainly later periods. This may have handicapped him in Love....

Any idea on Madoc's mother? Even speculative?

--Khanwulf

I think there are some major issues with the "Merlin as Ambrosius' son" plot, not the least being that if it was known at all Uther would have looked on him with great Suspicion instead of Trust. (Not that the barons would have been happy with a druid as king, and it might have disqualified him--the Narrative could swing either way.)



Since it's Mary Stewart's invention (inspired by Merlin's nickname being "Ambrosius" - in the earliest surviving version of the story of Merlin and Vortigern, in Nennius, the "boy without a father" is apparently actually a young Ambrosius), rather than part of the medieval chronicles or romances, I wouldn't worry about it. (Merlin's illegitimacy places him out of the running for the succession in Stewart's version in any case, not to mention that he doesn't have any interest in becoming king - better suited for the role of training or advising a king.)

Since it's Mary Stewart's invention (inspired by Merlin's nickname being "Ambrosius" - in the earliest surviving version of the story of Merlin and Vortigern, in Nennius, the "boy without a father" is apparently actually a young Ambrosius), rather than part of the medieval chronicles or romances, I wouldn't worry about it. (Merlin's illegitimacy places him out of the running for the succession in Stewart's version in any case, not to mention that he doesn't have any interest in becoming king - better suited for the role of training or advising a king.)

Yes, it's an entirely fanciful and logistically mind-boggling idea. But, similarly, so is that of the "boy without a father" being Aurelius Ambrosius! The surviving writings are about as reliable as Mists of Avalon for actual history--and perhaps in 500 years our fiction will be regarded as scholarly Aurthiana!

Ehem.

I doubt illegitimacy would have impeded a claim by Merlin were he known to be Ambrosius' son. Uther wasn't popular, he was just the best and strongest around in the face of continued Saxon (and Irish, Pict, etc.) crises. Further, the Anarchy following Uther's death would have seen concerted efforts to find Merlin and put him on the throne. Further to this point, Madoc was illegitimate and had no problem acting as heir. Now Uther acknowledged him publicly so there's that hurdle.

--Khanwulf

GMs always have an inherent license of creativity in their campaigns. For example, in one campaign, King Lot could become Uther's general and right hand man which would elevate Lot's position of power in the anarchy phase. Prince Madoc could sire a child, and how much that helps/hurts his chance to inherent, or Merlin might be a son of Aurelius. Even points that seem to be absolutely nailed down, can be handled differently by different GMs. An example here is the Chivalry bonus and exactly when it comes into play.

However, be aware there is an official canon that Pendragon rpg follows. In it, Merlin is the son of a devil and his mother had him baptized immediately.

GMs always have an inherent license of creativity in their campaigns. For example, in one campaign, King Lot could become Uther's general and right hand man which would elevate Lot's position of power in the anarchy phase. Prince Madoc could sire a child, and how much that helps/hurts his chance to inherent, or Merlin might be a son of Aurelius. Even points that seem to be absolutely nailed down, can be handled differently by different GMs. An example here is the Chivalry bonus and exactly when it comes into play.

However, be aware there is an official canon that Pendragon rpg follows. In it, Merlin is the son of a devil and his mother had him baptized immediately.

Your Pendragon Will Vary. YPWV. That's the fun of a sandbox setting: it's only partly on the rails and you can see how a small change ripples through the story. Anyway, my original question was fishing for any further info on these extremely early links, because yes they can be important later as PC families get embroiled in conflicts hot and cold.

I suppose that until we have an ancestor history book covering the post-Roman period we won't know what the official RPG line is. And Merlin is the son of the devil. Which is a challenging thing to verify unless someone goes and asks "dad"....

--Khanwulf