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View Full Version : What would an early manor hall look like?



Mr.47
06-25-2017, 07:35 AM
Have any of the prior editions or supplements given illustrations or diagrams of a manor house and the surrounding buildings? Google image search comes up bubkis. For example, from what I've seen of viking longhouses and the like, people tended to all crowd around one large firepit for cooking and warmth in the center of the structure, which could only have living space on the ground floor because of unchanneled rising smoke. Before the advent of the chimney, how was the lord's chamber, the kitchen, and the great hall kept seperate, as they're described to be in the 5.1 rulebook? Are they perhaps, until a later phase, three separate buildings altogether?

Greg Stafford
06-26-2017, 02:18 AM
To the best of my knowledge the manor house is a single structure, with dividing walls to separate the parts, with a fire pit in the center to keep the hall warm. The lords didn't keep animals in their house, like peasants did.
Other rooms were warmed with braziers, but even without windows (for defensive purposes), must have been pretty chilly in winter.

Mr.47
06-26-2017, 08:47 AM
Would windows really be that much more of a security risk in a *wooden* hall? Wattle and daub is probably great at keeping heat in and the wind out, but I would assume that it doesn't take that much work to hack through it with a good heavy axe and/or sledge hammer, or better yet, just break the door down, or even simpler, set it on fire and wait for the inhabitants to come running out. If anything, a lack of windows would surely be a detriment to defense, since attackers could set about doing any of the above while those inside are unable to see them or ideally shoot at them.

scarik
06-26-2017, 08:21 PM
In the time of longhouses no-one would have a good axe or a sledge hammer. Axes were mostly wood with a small, folded piece of iron over the bit. Felling trees with them would be onerous enough when you can choose the angle of attack. Trying them on a structure would be much harder. If you've ever tried to demo a wall its not a fast process even when its made of sheetrock, never mind if its heavy timber.

Just try taking out a wooden 4x4 fence post with a modern sledgehammer. Now imagine all the pickets are 6x6 posts or larger.

And of course if someone is banging on the wall you can just push a spear through them from one of the many holes and gaps that are exposed when the plastering material falls away.

Mr.47
06-26-2017, 09:48 PM
I suppose you could build a manor hall with solid lumber all the way through, but that doesn't look like how it was done, if you had the materials, the sophistication of tools, and the time to build a large structure out of solid lumber, why wouldn't you just stick a palisade around the whole compound, and build the hall like a comfortable normal house? Buildings themselves, from what survives, tended to be timber framed with infilling of wattle and daub, thin slats of wood interwoven like a wicker basket covered in plaster. Like this: http://www.earthhomesnow.com/images/wattle-daub-interior.jpg

Anyway, the point of a fortification is to allow a smaller number of defenders to hold out against a larger number of attackers. How would a wooden, windowless hall allow them to do that? If you stick a spear out of a hole in the wall, that has the same problem as a window that they can do the exact same, or worse, since you can't see what you're striking at, there's a solid chance you'll lose the spear. It seems to me that if an overwhelming number of enemy combatants have surrounded your wooden hall and you wouldn't be able to fight them off by going outside, you've already lost the fight, all the have to do is break the door down, or if they have a ladder, climb up to the thatching and hack through with a knife or sword, and if that fails, just toss a torch up onto the roof and wait. If it were a fortified manor, that'd be a different story since you've got tower(s), a palisade, a ditch, a gate preventing them from getting to your hall in the first place.

Taliesin
06-27-2017, 01:31 AM
I wouldn't worry too much about the windows: if you want them, by all means have them. The archeological record only left post-holes to mark these things, so there's no empirical proof of windows one way or another. Of course, they would be unglazed in the Early Phase and just have wooden shutters. One reason you may not want windows is to keep out draughts on a cold night, and driving rain. Another reason is they may just be too tricky to build. At any rate, there are plenty of speculative drawings and plans of medieval halls easily found with a Google search. Many of them have windows, many don't. Whatever works for you is fine.

Typically, the Great Hall was one long building, maybe 40' x 60' or so (but your mileage will vary according to the status of the lord — 40 x 60 being the norm for a fairly substantial lord — at least a baron). The hall is dominated by one large room. It would have a high ceiling, supported by heavy oaken beams. This room would have a large firepit, with louvered openings in the ceiling to let out the smoke. The hall may be divided into smaller rooms at the ends. The dividers are "screens" — wood-paneled walls.Behind one screen might be an area for service and storage. At the other end, behind the dais, is the lord's private chambers (one or two rooms). One of these rooms might be called a solor. Sometimes, these end-rooms can be two-storied, especially on the lord's end. In this case, the solar might be on the second floor, accessed by a crude stair. Over time halls become more elaborate, and second-floor musicians' galleries and so forth are added. There is probably only one door to the hall, located about one-third down on the long side. There may be a servants' entrance in the end-room described above if there is one. The kitchen would be nearby, beyond this door.

That's pretty much it, in a nutshell.

scarik
06-27-2017, 02:00 AM
I was thinking of building such a building like a log cabin. Its a simple design and very rugged. But if that's not how its done then we need another reason. ^^

The otehr idea is that the manor house itself can be enclosed without significant acreage also being protected. A low to medium height wall is more tha enough to make raiders decide not to bother with the house itself. So there may be no room to give refuge to the commonfolk and their animals but there is enough to secure the stable, kitchen and smithy. Its not a true pallisade and it doesn't have a ditch and rampart, but it is enough to make it so a few fighters on the inside can bloody a much larger force. The house is surely built on a hill near the village as well to make it a little better.

And if you can already hit the unprotected villagers, why risk the real fighters in the big house.

Mr.47
06-27-2017, 09:09 AM
I was thinking of building such a building like a log cabin. Its a simple design and very rugged. But if that's not how its done then we need another reason. ^^

The otehr idea is that the manor house itself can be enclosed without significant acreage also being protected. A low to medium height wall is more tha enough to make raiders decide not to bother with the house itself. So there may be no room to give refuge to the commonfolk and their animals but there is enough to secure the stable, kitchen and smithy. Its not a true pallisade and it doesn't have a ditch and rampart, but it is enough to make it so a few fighters on the inside can bloody a much larger force. The house is surely built on a hill near the village as well to make it a little better.

And if you can already hit the unprotected villagers, why risk the real fighters in the big house.

Only enclosing the hall and outbuildings is what I think the reality was as well. I've never been convinced by the "protecting the commoners and livestock" thing with castles and fortified manors, if you look at them, most castles were tiny, and intended to hold out on limited provisions for as long as possible with a small number of defenders. You obviously had some notable exceptions, the really big comptal and ducal castles that could probably shelter a village or two of peasants if they wanted to, but I don't think those would have been typical. I know that in Anglo-Saxon England, peasants would flee to the nearest *walled town* with their valuables and help defend it, that was the point of Alfred the Great's system of Burghal Hidage, every burgh (walled town) would be the center of a defensive zone with a fixed number of Hides (land sufficient for one family) dependent on how long the wall was, with one hide (and theoretically one adult male) for every five feet of wall. But castles? There's just about enough room for the family, army, staff, and the lord's valuables and livestock.

SirUkpyr
06-27-2017, 05:56 PM
If you want to know what a Medieval (whether early or late) Hall looked like, look to the literature.

Beowulf has a good description of Hrothgar's hall. The sagas of Snurri Snurlison also have good descriptions. Chanson de Gestes have some as well, such as the Song of Roland, or the Legends of Charlemagne.

Greg Stafford
06-28-2017, 08:01 PM
Would windows really be that much more of a security risk in a *wooden* hall?

Yes. But this is a 2-story structure, and windows would probably be only on the upper floor, and big enough to shoot through, but not big enough to climb through.


Wattle and daub is probably great at keeping heat in and the wind out,

Only peasant houses are wattle and daub, not manor houses


but I would assume that it doesn't take that much work to hack through it with a good heavy axe and/or sledge hammer, or better yet, just break the door down,

Correct
Although for the record, doing so violates the king's laws and is a very serious offense


or even simpler, set it on fire and wait for the inhabitants to come running out. If anything, a lack of windows would surely be a detriment to defense, since attackers could set about doing any of the above while those inside are unable to see them or ideally shoot at them.
Correct

Even the door is at the upstairs level of the building, with wooden stairway that can be broken in case of an attack