Do you incorporate other mechanics, rules or guidelines from other systems into your Pendragon game?

An example might be that maybe you've experimented with using the company rules from Reign or maybe lifepaths from the Burning Wheel and from D&D 4th ed, well....... meh.........Only kidding! ;)

One example I have learnt from another book (and I admit that this is a quite a poor example but I just thought it off the top of my head!) would be from Ron Edwards' Sorcerer & Sword.
In it he proposes that failed die rolls for a task are not always immediately evident but that repercussions from the failed roll may come back to haunt a PC later. A failed die roll for a task may actually be successful but the outcome will be disadvantageous, maybe immediately or in the future.

For instance, a fumbled Courtesy or Flirting roll may not just result in immediate embarrassment or offence.
At a banquet held by King Pellam, a PC aggressively flirts with a beautiful, mysterious lady and hands her a goblet of wine. The PC fumbles the roll. Does he stammer foolishly and spill the wine down the front of her dress? No, what is at stake is the PC's role at the banquet. It gives the GM an opportunity to make trouble later for the PC. Maybe the lady in question talks about that encounter involving the dashing young PC with the dour Sir Garlon, making that particularly dangerous knight rather jealous...........

I guess this rather poor example I've cobbled up from Sorcerer & Sword just stuck in my head because it seemed so suited to Pendragon. It seems really obvious in retrospect but I've somewhat rather naively never considered it.

I'm really looking for better examples. Does anyone have any?

We use something ripped from Cyberpunk character generation - which is Yearly Events.
Every year regardless of the adventure you roll on a random table to see what else happens. So that the PK can get enemies/friends, good/bad fortunes, family events, etc. This really adds flavor for us since the world changes subtly outside of the adventure as well.
Then in some cases this is incorporated into future adventures.

We use something ripped from Cyberpunk character generation - which is Yearly Events.
Every year regardless of the adventure you roll on a random table to see what else happens. So that the PK can get enemies/friends, good/bad fortunes, family events, etc. This really adds flavor for us since the world changes subtly outside of the adventure as well.
Then in some cases this is incorporated into future adventures.
I use that one too! :D

If anyone would like to contribute to an extended Family Events Table for a project I am working on, you are invited to send something in.

I've made this request, and the only person who answered was Robert Audin.

I'd love more contributions.

--G

If anyone would like to contribute to an extended Family Events Table for a project I am working on, you are invited to send something in.

I've made this request, and the only person who answered was Robert Audin.

I'd love more contributions.

--G


In which format, when and where to?

I'm in the process of rewriting ours right now.

I've expanded the Family Events table from the Winter phase ever so slightly. I'm sure you could go much further..

STEP EIGHT: Family Events
d20 result
1-2 death in family*
3-7 marriage in family*
8-12 birth in family
13 missing, may be lost
14 insanity
15-18 no event
19-20 scandal in family*
* Indicates roll on Family Member Table (below) to find person affected. If the result is ridiculous, like your mother remarrying when your father is alive, reroll.

Family Member Table
d20 person
1-3 Father
4-6 Mother
7-11 Brother
12-15 Sister
16 Uncle
17 Aunt
18 Grandfather (even on d6) or Grandmother (odd on d6)
19-20 Cousin

Scandal Table
d20 result
1 insulted their lord
2 homosexuality rumoured
3 cheated at a tournament
4 badly in debt
5 sexual deviancy rumoured
6 adultery accusations
7 ancestry disputed
8 kidnap accusation
9 horse stealing accusation
10 claim of having an illegitamate child
11 said to be an alcoholic
12 treason rumoured (acepting bribes from saxons, picts etc,.)
13 Enjoys the company or young peasant girls (or boys)
14 feud with another knight or noble family
15 disliked by the peasants
16 messy love affair almost proved
17 murder rumored
18 heresy rumored
19 necromancy rumored
20 roll again, rerolling 20s, but this time the event is proved true!

->The Solitary Knight
Thought about it and then tead through your post again and I really like the bit about the failures not being obvious at once. That works really nice with certain trait rolls I have been tinkering with. Also from a role playing perspective it removes the focus on the dice and gives the GM some time to consider the implications.


->Greg
Started a seperate topic for Family/Kin events:



.

The quandary I have is about rolling the dice openly in front of the PC's. If the roll is obviously a fail, they may question the absence of any evidence of a failure.
Of course, this may keep them on their toes, wondering when or where the repercussions may surface! ;)

Agreed, in some cases I let the players roll behind my screen (yes I'm that old) and not reveal the actual roll until later. Usually this is for things like awareness, heraldry or recognize where the failure of the roll would be an obvious give away that there is more info to find.
But that does not work as well when they do expect an immidiate result. But with the sorcerer and sword thingie one could use behind-screen rolls on other events as well...
*laughs evily*

Its very interesting. I like it a lot. But what if u fail your dancing, or hunting, or boating? That is a bit harder to foreshadow an event on than courtesy, recognize or heraldry for instance. If it were myself here this is what i would do for simplicity sake, and i have done it this way in the past....... I have done exactly what u suggest with the later repruccusions thing.... but ONLY ON A FUMBLE. That way there is an immediate problem( you spilled the wine on the unknown lady) and a later problem...... She thinks u did it purposely and tells her young lover Antoine to challenge u to a duel!!!!!! ;) If the players fumble they know it..... but i keep them on their toes by NOT ALWAYS having the secondary horrible event. Its fun for a long while watching them sweat it out and thinking that there might be something coming....... And sometimes the larger repruccusions DO come!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well I was thinking about trait rolls.
But I will take the challenge... :D

Boating
Simple, they go out on a beautiful day when the breeze is perfect. Clearing the harbor easily since strangely most other boats are staying in. Then distract them with some planning or stuff, then point out to the person with the highest awareness score. By the way isn't that cloud over there looking very dark?

Hunting
I think that playing through the whole hunting sequence. Letting the player(s) corner the prey etc. Then when returning boastfully to the other hunting party... One of the lackeys discreetely steps over to one of the squires. "Hrrm. I see that your master has caught a very excellent deer and it is not my place to question this but was it not a boar hunt that was declared? It might seem proper and all but maybe you wish to ask your master if it wouldn't be better with a small luncheon instead of returning right away?"

Dancing.
*roll* well everything goes very well. You dance merrily with all the blushing dames and maidens. In fact your own joy seems to rub off on the crowd sitting around as well, where you get several nods and smiles and even a wave or two.
*turns to next player*
Meanwhile you are trying your best not to be rude to the forreigners sitting next to you, but they are very strange and that habit of stabbing their food with small versions of peasant equipment is simply to outlandish to be ignored, please roll a courtesy... *roll* hmm *writes things on note* Well you sort out the situation with the foreigners after you have shown them the proper way of eating using hand, bread and dagger but you don't even have time to finish that of before you spot something else. *gives note to second player turns to third player*
What was your intention now again... blabla...
Note: "You notice that player one does not have his breeches in order. But he dances away oblivious anyway. Most seem to find this amusing but you might want to do something before someone stricter might take som offense at seing his small wear. Discreetly."
...blabla... *turning to player two* So what was that that you wanted to do? *evil smile*

But I agree it works much better with fumbles. that way they would be kept on their toes for a while expecting...

I dabbled with Reign's company rules, but they weren't working out for me. I may well have been misinterpreting them (I've never played Reign, a player simply handed me some photo-copies of the company rules), but it seemed like they were building up power way too quickly and easily.

I've also borrowed a few ideas from Savage Worlds. Foremost amongst them are the use of "Adventure Tokens" that function similarly to the bennies in SW in that they primarily let players get a few rerolls per adventure. I wanted something to help make the player knights standout a bit more and have a few less fatalities.

I also use a mechanic I call "bloodied" (started this before 4th ed D&D) which is inspired a bit by the Shaken mechanic in Savage Worlds. Basically they amount to "mook rules". I found that they really help to speed up combat.

Furthermore, I've used the Mass Battle rules from Savage Worlds a time or two.

...the Shaken mechanic in Savage Worlds. Basically they amount to "mook rules". I found that they really help to speed up combat.


I have no doubt SirDynadan that mook rules would speed up combat. But speaking from a group that 90% of my players have come from D&D (various versions), I can't express enough how much faster combats have gone, simply by eliminating initiative. I would borrow this simultaneous combat mechanic for any game I run in the future.

Dynadan, I'm also interested in trying to incorporate a similar bennie system.
The Fate system from SoTC/Starblazer that I've read about but not played yet, interests me in that a PC's aspects/character hooks can be used either for or against the PC and a PC can use fate points to add to a roll or to re-roll a task. Or a PC can be compelled to act under their aspects, in which they earn fate points.
I'm not sure how to (or even if I can) use this with KAP though.
Starblazer and its possible upcoming fantasy variant is on my shopping list for me to find out more about this!

I read Reign's company rules but never applied them to KAP.
I'm probably phrasing it badly but mook rules have always seemed to go against the spirit of KAP for me.

By "mook rules," do you mean mechanics that would let a small group of knights quickly hack their way through, say, an army of Romans 60,000 strong? Because I think that sort of thing is as much a part of bloody Arthurian combat as extended knightly duels.

I don't feel that a knight being able to hack through a few footsoldiers is against the spirit of Pendragon. Rather I feel that getting bogged down by keeping track of the hitpoints for the three different footsoldiers attacking a player-knight to run counter to the milieu of the setting.

You are both right. I phrased it clumsily.
KAP appeals to me for its elegant and deadly combat. I try and avoid any association with a powergaming, overblown, sword & sorcery style though. I have visions of a big, hairy barbarian hacking his way through a faceless horde of disposable enemies in some of the other poorer games I have experienced.

We use something ripped from Cyberpunk character generation - which is Yearly Events.
Every year regardless of the adventure you roll on a random table to see what else happens. So that the PK can get enemies/friends, good/bad fortunes, family events, etc. This really adds flavor for us since the world changes subtly outside of the adventure as well.
Then in some cases this is incorporated into future adventures.

Did you make your Yearly Events somewhere available online?

wfg,
Thijs

I don't feel that a knight being able to hack through a few footsoldiers is against the spirit of Pendragon. Rather I feel that getting bogged down by keeping track of the hitpoints for the three different footsoldiers attacking a player-knight to run counter to the milieu of the setting.



This is what I agree with. While I like the idea that death is just around every corner for a player knight, the milieu of the setting (not to mention the source material) strongly says otherwise ...

We use something ripped from Cyberpunk character generation - which is Yearly Events.
Every year regardless of the adventure you roll on a random table to see what else happens. So that the PK can get enemies/friends, good/bad fortunes, family events, etc. This really adds flavor for us since the world changes subtly outside of the adventure as well.
Then in some cases this is incorporated into future adventures.

Did you make your Yearly Events somewhere available online?

wfg,
Thijs


Yupp, over here (http://www.gspendragon.com/roundtable/index.php?topic=312.msg4469#msg4469)... They are combined with our summer solo events.

Damn, I'd almost forgot about this thread!
This penitent knight submits to the superior wisdom of his fellow knights.

Love those random tables. Gives me a warm, old-skool fuzzy feeling inside!

Love those random tables. Gives me a warm, old-skool fuzzy feeling inside!

Well that might just be because I am old school... My players have mocked me more than once about the winterphase being SimKnightTM.

Love those random tables. Gives me a warm, old-skool fuzzy feeling inside!

Well that might just be because I am old school... My players have mocked me more than once about the winterphase being SimKnightTM.

Just remind them which one came first.

As for yearly events, just keeping track of them year after year with a family tree can enrich the campaign, even without re-doing the current Family Events table. Many times, when I roll up a new character, all I know about him is he's son No. 1, his father is X, and his homeland is Y. After ten years of Family Events rolls, I might have a knight who:

1 I guess I have a younger brother, because he just had a son. I wonder if he's married...
2 A sister is missing/lost...she must have gotten pregnant and "disappeared" into the nunnery at Z.
3 Marriage in family! Maybe the missing sister. No, I think my father remarried.
4 A drama-free Christmas this year. How nice!
5 My aunt is missing...oh, they found her drowned in the fish pond. How sad.
6 My sister, the one who ran off but found that nice boy up in Z to marry? She just had a child!
7 My cousin is getting married. Do I want to travel all the way to W to attend the wedding?
8 My younger brother, the one with the young son, didn't come back from a year of adventuring. Now what? Shall I raise his son as my own?
9 Oh, poor woman: my brother's wife has a child, but still no word of my brother. And, now I have another mouth to feed.
10 OMG, death in family....father!

Now my guy has a lot more color and background: extra heirs, family in Z and W that maybe he can rely on...although, I don't know. My cousin seem pretty irritated that I made a fool of myself at his wedding feast, so maybe not.

Suzanne

We use something ripped from Cyberpunk character generation - which is Yearly Events.


It's not truly ripped off from Cyberpunk character generation unless there are options on it in which your character dies before you even get to play a single session. 8)



As for yearly events, just keeping track of them year after year with a family tree can enrich the campaign, even without re-doing the current Family Events table. Many times, when I roll up a new character, all I know about him is he's son No. 1, his father is X, and his homeland is Y. After ten years of Family Events rolls, I might have a knight who:

1 I guess I have a younger brother, because he just had a son. I wonder if he's married...
2 A sister is missing/lost...she must have gotten pregnant and "disappeared" into the nunnery at Z.
3 Marriage in family! Maybe the missing sister. No, I think my father remarried.
4 A drama-free Christmas this year. How nice!
5 My aunt is missing...oh, they found her drowned in the fish pond. How sad.
6 My sister, the one who ran off but found that nice boy up in Z to marry? She just had a child!
7 My cousin is getting married. Do I want to travel all the way to W to attend the wedding?
8 My younger brother, the one with the young son, didn't come back from a year of adventuring. Now what? Shall I raise his son as my own?
9 Oh, poor woman: my brother's wife has a child, but still no word of my brother. And, now I have another mouth to feed.
10 OMG, death in family....father!

Now my guy has a lot more color and background: extra heirs, family in Z and W that maybe he can rely on...although, I don't know. My cousin seem pretty irritated that I made a fool of myself at his wedding feast, so maybe not.

Suzanne


That's great if you don't generate families for a character when you generate the character - it would be nice if the tables worked "in reverse" too though, so that they generated events for a few specific family members. Although the effect would be pretty similar, over a long campaign with several players, there would be a lot more variety in the generated histories.

We use something ripped from Cyberpunk character generation - which is Yearly Events.


It's not truly ripped off from Cyberpunk character generation unless there are options on it in which your character dies before you even get to play a single session. 8)



<pedant derail> The editions of Cyberpunk I have read don't allow characters to do in character design. Are you thinking of Traveller?</pedantry>

It was one of those books with a black cover with red lettering on it anyway...

Ahem... back on topic...

I have been toying with the idea of a fate/destiny point system adapted from Star Wars Saga edition which allowed a player to spend a point to cancel an enemy's critical, or maybe ensure success on a non-combat skill roll. I don't know how many points to dole out or whether they should be replenished... and I'm not even sure I want to make the game less fatal, to be honest.

I have used such a system before, but decided I quite liked the Pendragon lethality stopped using it. However, in case it helps, I used two different methods to generate points, and friend used a different method.

First, I gave players 1 point per 1,000 glory they gained. Once used they were gone.
In the end, I didn't like this, because it meant people who were doing well, tended to do better, and people who weren't doing well, didn't.

In the second method, I drew up a list of calamities, and you gained a point whenever one of these things happened. Things like:
* Go Mad
* Get Knocked out in combat
* Suffer a fumble on an important roll (so going mad gives you two points!)
* Missing a year or more due to being captured, lost, etc.
* Dies: 3 points.

These points were awarded to the player, not the character - if he had two characters, he could get points with one and use them on another. (Thus, the usefulness of the dying award).

Finally, my friend used a simpler system. At the start of each year, roll 1d3 and that's how many points you get for this year - they are reset each year, so any not used are lost.

That's great if you don't generate families for a character when you generate the character - it would be nice if the tables worked "in reverse" too though, so that they generated events for a few specific family members.

I thought that my system did address that issue? But to do it explicitly you would need computer aided tables.


(and there are no mortality in the cyberpunk generation, at max you could get wounded or imprisoned)

I have used such a system before, but decided I quite liked the Pendragon lethality stopped using it. However, in case it helps, I used two different methods to generate points, and friend used a different method.


I've been considering using FATE/Hero points (which seem to be all the fashion in a lot of the RPG's that I am reading recently) for KAP to modify die rolls; for re-rolls, reducing damage taken and to invoke bonuses.
The best way for PC's to earn these, I think, is for rewarding exceptional roleplay by an individual during a game when they really drive the story forward.

The best way for PC's to earn these, I think, is for rewarding exceptional roleplay by an individual during a game when they really drive the story forward.


Careful. That can lead to a nasty loop. Somebody does something exceptional, and earns Hero (and Glory) points, so he has a bit of a luxury the second or third time around. Eventually you can end up with a Lancelot type character, who can afford to take greater risks (and earn more HP and Glory) because of the Hero Points he has banked up. Other players will either be unable to take such risks, or try a get killed in the process.

Good point. Maybe a solution would be to reward clever and entertaining roleplay by giving fate points to the PC group as a whole to use as they see fit.
All PC's can share in the pool of fate points available to them.
I think that the amount of fate points should be doled out sparingly by the GM though. Don't want to make things way too easy for the PC's!
I must admit I'm in two minds about this idea though. The greater part of me revels too much in what can be the gritty, raw brutality of the setting!

The best way for PC's to earn these, I think, is for rewarding exceptional roleplay by an individual during a game when they really drive the story forward.


Careful. That can lead to a nasty loop. Somebody does something exceptional, and earns Hero (and Glory) points, so he has a bit of a luxury the second or third time around. Eventually you can end up with a Lancelot type character, who can afford to take greater risks (and earn more HP and Glory) because of the Hero Points he has banked up. Other players will either be unable to take such risks, or try a get killed in the process.


Yes, I started out doing that, saw that loop happening so the next time I tried I did it the opposite way. Players got a point whenever they got knocked out, suffered shock or a major wound (but not aging), went mad, got imprisoned, etc.

Some possobile methods of incoprtationg HPs:

-One method you could try is to give everyone a certain number of points to begin with, and then let then buy more with thier Gory bonus.

-Another would be to let players downgrade a critical to a normal success for a HP.



Personally, I wouldn't add HPs to Pendragon. I think it will just end up exaggerating the larger than life qualities of the PCs.

I've run and like several games that use hero points (the James Bond RPG having by far my favorite version of the rule, and I think the first RPG to incorporate HP), and while I like them in some games (love them in Bond), I find them less than helpful in others.

Personally, I wouldn't add HPs to Pendragon. I think it will just end up exaggerating the larger than life qualities of the PCs.

I've run and like several games that use hero points (the James Bond RPG having by far my favorite version of the rule, and I think the first RPG to incorporate HP), and while I like them in some games (love them in Bond), I find them less than helpful in others.


Great Jumping Crickets! The James Bond RPG, that's an oldie but a goldie!

I think maybe you are right. To add fate points to KAP would detract from its distinctiveness.
It would kinda be like stripping down the distinctive alignment system in D&D. Oh wait, they've just done that! :-X

[quote author=Atgxtg link=topic=304.msg5167#msg5167 date=1269456427]

Great Jumping Crickets! The James Bond RPG, that's an oldie but a goldie!
One of my personal favorites, even though most of my players can't handle it. But I believe it was the first RPG to have a Hero Point mechanic.



I think maybe you are right. To add fate points to KAP would detract from its distinctiveness.
It would kinda be like stripping down the distinctive alignment system in D&D. Oh wait, they've just done that! :-X


I think that for an Arthurian RPG Hero Points aren't such a good idea becuase many of the knights in the stories fail. In other forms of heroic fiction the heroes nearly awalys succeed-at least as far as the major goal of the adventure goes.

But in Arthurian literature there are many adventures that only the best knights can solve. Giving the PCs hero points will make it so that the PCs could end up able to solves things that only Lancelot or the like should, thanks to the points.

But that is just my way of thinking.

I'm not sure if I'm playing an old skool elitist RPG or an old skool RPG that champions the cause of mediocritys and under-achievers now! :D
Still, at least I'm not playing a rat catcher as one could in WFRP!

The Spanish game RyF has a mechanic where each player has a token. They can pass the token to the GM to improve their success. Mechanic is roll 3D10 and pick middle. The token allows the player to pick the highest roll.

Conversely, the GM can then hand the token back to the player and force him to take the lower roll.

Something like this might work in KAP as you are not getting a benefit for nothing. This way, you are trading good luck for bad.

In KAP I'd allow a second roll and then the player chooses the best result. Alternative GM chooses the more 'interesting' result.