Situation as succint and precise as possible:

Player-knight fights in the Continent (526-527). In the siege of Milan, he is gravely wounded. After the britons conquer the city, PK is tended by a noble lady, Amalafrida. The Duchess of Milan, Amalafrida and many of the Italians (Ostrogoths) are not fond of Britons but PK is moved by Amalafrida's dedication to his recovery and her beauty. Player decides that PK is in love with Amalafrida (Love 15 - later bumped to 16).
Many of the noblemen are transported to Dover for ransom, including Eboric, a nobleman who was interested in marrying her, but not her father who was too old to go. He refuses to pay ransom as he hates Britons with a passion, and denies any proposals from PK to marry Amalafrida. Some good Flirt rolls and roleplaying and Amalafrida is torn between the PK and respeting her father's wishes. Father continues to refuse.
Duchess of Milan wants Amalafrida to marry Eboric. She asks PK to go to Britain and return within a year. She says Amalafrida's father will be dead then, so the two can marry then.
PK returns to Britain, cherishing the thought of marrying Amalafrida. He was already married and has lots of sons so the player wanted his character to marry for love. He knows Eboric will return eventually to Milan, probably marrying Amalafrida. PK begins to entertain dark thoughts of capturing Eboric or killing him to make away for Amalafrida.
PK has Loyalty (Lord) 19 and Love (Amalafrida) 16. I want to create some sort of conflict between these two passions. Could a Lord, in this case Earl Robert, press the PK to marry someone other than Amalafrida? KAP and Book of Entourage seems to heavily imply that a knight MUST ask his Lord permission to marry someone so I want to set up some sort of conflict.
Note: For now, I'm not worried about Eboric, that's a different situation, but I included it here for clarification.

I would say a lord could ask a vassal to marry a certain lady, especially if the marriage is part of a diplomatic discussion with a rival noble. It will be hard for a vassal to say no. And it depends on his own family and the power how much the asking is actually an order.

One option would be that after years of discussion and rivalry Earl Robert has got his rival to agree to stop the hostility between them. Part of the agreement is a intermingling of marriages. One lady of Earl Robert's court marries a knight of the rival 's court and one lady from the rival's court marries one of Earl Robert's knights. Of course Earl Robert has the PK in mind for this honor. The first marriage has gone through, now the second one needs to be concluded.

A vassal does need his lord's permission to marry.
It is entirely up to the lord's decision

Even if Amalafrida marries someone else the PK could carry on an affair with her. If' they have not had sex the chaste affair, fin amour, would be pretty normal for the post-conquest Period.

I would say a lord could ask a vassal to marry a certain lady, especially if the marriage is part of a diplomatic discussion with a rival noble. It will be hard for a vassal to say no. And it depends on his own family and the power how much the asking is actually an order.


A vassal does need his lord's permission to marry.
It is entirely up to the lord's decision


I should ask the question the other way around: Can Earl Robert ask (order) the PK to marry someone? This would certainly "force" the PK to choose between his Loyalty (Lord) and Amor (Amalafrida). My idea here is to create an interesting conflict. Cornelius certainly asked this question to a certain extent.


Even if Amalafrida marries someone else the PK could carry on an affair with her. If' they have not had sex the chaste affair, fin amour, would be pretty normal for the post-conquest Period.

Things have not yet reached the Romance, fine amor phase mainly because PK is still trying to marry Amalafrida out of love (he's not married, she's not married). Eboric, the Italian knight who was made prisoner by Arthur - and waiting ransom in Dover - is about to be released after his family successfully negotiated the terms of his release, so he'll return to Milan soon.

I should ask the question the other way around: Can Earl Robert ask (order) the PK to marry someone? This would certainly "force" the PK to choose between his Loyalty (Lord) and Amor (Amalafrida). My idea here is to create an interesting conflict. Cornelius certainly asked this question to a certain extent.

I think that propriety prevents a direct order, but a liege asking would certainly create a lot of pressure. A knight might refuse, but he could never be sure how that might affect his lord's opinion of him. The higher his Loyalty (Robert) is, the more difficult it would be to refuse.


Things have not yet reached the Romance, fine amor phase mainly because PK is still trying to marry Amalafrida out of love (he's not married, she's not married). Eboric, the Italian knight who was made prisoner by Arthur - and waiting ransom in Dover - is about to be released after his family successfully negotiated the terms of his release, so he'll return to Milan soon.
He could go to King Arthur and ask him to arrange the marriage (presuming Arthur even knows who he is). Few people in Italy would refuse the Conqueror of Rome,
BUT it would be possible!
Alternative: maybe even Arthur would pause before making this match if Sir Eboric's family was well connected (oh, maybe a nephew of the Pope or something.)

I think that propriety prevents a direct order, but a liege asking would certainly create a lot of pressure. A knight might refuse, but he could never be sure how that might affect his lord's opinion of him. The higher his Loyalty (Robert) is, the more difficult it would be to refuse.

That clarifies things a lot, thanks.


He could go to King Arthur and ask him to arrange the marriage (presuming Arthur even knows who he is). Few people in Italy would refuse the Conqueror of Rome,
BUT it would be possible!

Although, it seems in 529 AD Rome is rebelling against Arthur, so I would think Milan would follow shortly. I already hinted during my campaign that the Italians were none too pleased with Britons conquering their land.


Alternative: maybe even Arthur would pause before making this match if Sir Eboric's family was well connected (oh, maybe a nephew of the Pope or something.)

Yes, Eboric is certainly well-connected and the Duchess WANTS him to marry Amalafrida. If the PK want to fight for the love of a lady, I make their stakes high.

On the other hand, this particular PK is a knight of the Round Table, with a Chivalrous bonus and almost 9000 Glory and counting, so I assume Arthur would, at least, hear what he has to say and consider his offer. In the end, I think either the PK will marry Amalafrida refusing his Earl's "suggestion" of a marriage with another Lady or accept the offer of his Earl and the story will become a tragic love story. Even if Amalafrida is in Milan, she could later turn up in Camelot (after a few years) and an illicit romance will be rekindled.

Sounds like a fun game

Yes, considering his status I would say that Arthur would certainly consider the PK's desire seriously.

Maybe even unto outfitting a raid to Milan to capture the lady. After all, it's against an enemy when they rebel!

Sounds like a fun game

Thanks, we think so too.

Well, things took a new turn. Earl Robert proposed a marriage between the PK and a lady from Silchester to begin healing old wounds and create a stronger alliance with both counties. The PK was torn between his Loyalty and the Love of Amalafrida. In the end, he could not shirk his duties, so he married, but still he was boiling inside.

Then, he decided to leave Britain for Milan to see Amalafrida one last time. But his love got the better of him, and Amalafrida's pleas of love didn't help either. Alas, the Duchess of Milan had already arrange her marriage to Eboric. Then, recklessly both lovers decided to leave Milan (love makes you act silly). They were pursued by Eboric who intercepted them somewhere in Francia. Both knights decided to fight for Amalafrida, both incensed by their love for her. In the end, some bad rolls, and the PK was captured by Eboric and Amalafrida was to marry Eboric.


Yes, considering his status I would say that Arthur would certainly consider the PK's desire seriously.

Maybe even unto outfitting a raid to Milan to capture the lady. After all, it's against an enemy when they rebel!

I like this suggestion, and I was thinking about how to go about it. Currently, the PK is married to a Silchester noblewoman and Amalafrida is married to Eboric, so I cannot retcon events. But here's a rough plan worked out.

A) PK's wife dies. Amalafrida never marries Eboric (he dies).
B) Amalafrida writes to the PK (it takes a long for that letter to travel all the way to Britain), but she doesn't know the PK is already a widow.
C) The PK will certainly talk to Arthur (I'll suggest this to him) and a party is underway to fight the rebels (maybe some battles where the PKs can decide the outcome).

I like this.

Thanks, we think so too.

Well, things took a new turn. Earl Robert proposed a marriage between the PK and a lady from Silchester to begin healing old wounds and create a stronger alliance with both counties. The PK was torn between his Loyalty and the Love of Amalafrida. In the end, he could not shirk his duties, so he married, but still he was boiling inside.

Then, he decided to leave Britain for Milan to see Amalafrida one last time. But his love got the better of him, and Amalafrida's pleas of love didn't help either. Alas, the Duchess of Milan had already arrange her marriage to Eboric. Then, recklessly both lovers decided to leave Milan (love makes you act silly). They were pursued by Eboric who intercepted them somewhere in Francia. Both knights decided to fight for Amalafrida, both incensed by their love for her. In the end, some bad rolls, and the PK was captured by Eboric and Amalafrida was to marry Eboric.



I like this suggestion, and I was thinking about how to go about it. Currently, the PK is married to a Silchester noblewoman and Amalafrida is married to Eboric, so I cannot retcon events. But here's a rough plan worked out.

A) PK's wife dies. Amalafrida never marries Eboric (he dies).
B) Amalafrida writes to the PK (it takes a long for that letter to travel all the way to Britain), but she doesn't know the PK is already a widow.
C) The PK will certainly talk to Arthur (I'll suggest this to him) and a party is underway to fight the rebels (maybe some battles where the PKs can decide the outcome).

I like this.

Aha. But if the PK is now captured by his arch-rival, would not said rival immediately turn back to Milan, dragging PK with him in chains, marry Amalafrida--even taunting her with harm to said PK should she refuse or "misbehave", and then chuck PK into an oubliette indefinitely? --Rebuffing offers of ransom, even?

It sounds like the next stage of escalation involves King Arthur incensed at losing a RT knight to increasingly rebellious Italy, Silchester and Salisbury dragged into a family matter, and the other PKs raising their own response with Emperor Arthur's blessing to sack Milan and rescue the love-birds. So to speak.

It's Romeo and Juliette... -ish! I'm sure after someone springs the PK himself from his hole, there will be a rousing swordfight up the steps of the tallest tower, whilst Milan burns about them, offering its warmest embrace to the tumbling body of... someone... following their last, poetic lines.

And ... then you can drag the Eastern Emperor into the mix, throw some Saracens at the PKs, maybe Varangians, and it'll be a blast!



--Khanwulf

A vassal does need his lord's permission to marry.
It is entirely up to the lord's decision.

Is this historically accurate? Can you provide some sources. Not doubting but this just came up in another discussion and someone mentioned a vassal could marry whenever he wanted. I'm trying to sort things out.

Is this historically accurate? Can you provide some sources. Not doubting but this just came up in another discussion and someone mentioned a vassal could marry whenever he wanted. I'm trying to sort things out.

Obviously not Greg, but from the "After 1066" chapter of Christine Fell's Women in Anglo-Saxon England, the impression I get is that, among the noble, land-holding class, people were obligated to get their lord's permission or to pay a fee/fine to avoid doing so (or potentially risk seizure of their holdings). Note that a widow, but not a maiden, might be able to do the latter (a maiden still being the ward of someone or other).

Also, in theory, at least, the Church held that any two people could get married so long as they both consented (and weren't forbidden from marriage for reasons of blood-relationship or prior marriage or such), and could not be married if they didn't. Of course, medieval opinions on consent are probably dubious from a modern perspective.

So, I would expect that for your average knight, marrying almost anyone you want is probably just a matter of paying your lord for the privilege to choose for yourself. If you didn't pay or get permission upfront, you would probably face more severe consequences afterward. But he couldn't actually stop you from getting married without actually physically separating you.

For higher nobles, I suspect this would be harder and more restrictive. I think that when Eleanor of Aquitaine married King Henry II, the King of France invaded Normandy because she didn't get permission to do so.

Since I don't want to split the party, and forcing inactive players to watch someone play out their own adventures, and to enforce my strict rule of 1 session = 1 year, I played this event with the player as a solo adventure out of session:

- PK marries a Lady from Silchester thereby honoring his word to his liege, Earl Robert (Loyalty [Lord] 19). Yes, he was forced to roll between that and Love [Amalafrida] 16. After the wedding, he traveled to Milan to visit his lady once more.
- Amalafrida is torn between her love for him and her Loyalty to the Duchess of Milan who has already arranged Amalafrida to marry with Eboric (recently released after paying his ransom). A critical Love [Amalafrida] and the PK persuades Amalafrida to flee with him [Reckless check] as every knight falls upon him. A few sword rolls later and the couple is speeding away to the Alps with Eboric hot on their heels.
- PK and Amalafrida are intercepted by Eboric and his men. A duel follows. Both men have their skills raised by their passion for Amalafrida. Alas, the PK looses the duel, his badly wounded and captured, taken to Eboric's castle.
- Amalafrida vows to Eboric to never again see the PK and marry him if only the PK's life is spared. Eboric agrees. PK recovers and returns to Britania to lick his wounds with additional checks in Reckless, Love [Amalafrida] and Sword, and 20 Glory for this "small" adventure.

I plan on returning to Amalafrida in a few years. For now, let things simmer.

Can't cite a source quickly
and a lot of my reference books are now housed elsewhere
but
http://www.historyextra.com/article/feature/love-and-marriage-medieval-england-customs-vows-ceremony
says
Although the medieval church upheld freely given consent as the foundation of marriage, in practice families and social networks usually had a great deal of influence over the choice and approval of marriage partners. It was also normal at all levels of society to make some ‘pre-nup’ arrangements to provide for widow- and widowerhood and for any children. It was also expected that everyone would seek the permission of their lord, and kings consulted over their own and their children’s marriages. Marriage between people of different classes was particularly frowned on.

http://rosaliegilbert.com/weddings.html
says
The peasants and working classes tended to marry into their own age and status demographic, preferring to choose healthy women who would bear children well and be fit enough to work alongside him if needed, as well as manage the domestic household. The Lord's permission needed to be sought before a marriage could take place and if marrying outside of his holdings, a fine or merchet may be exacted.