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dwarinpt
07-02-2017, 02:34 AM
Is a knight allowed to give manors as grant or gifts to other knights (in exchange for their loyalty)?

Is a rich knight allowed to knight others (as household knights or landed knights)?

How frequent (or allowed) would this be during the Conquest / Romance period?

Mr.47
07-02-2017, 03:26 AM
1) Yes

2) Yes, provided he can supply the requisite equipment, one isn't much of a knight without a horse and some armor.

3) It's certainly allowed but not very common I would imagine. You already get a full time household knight for every demesne manor, and a vassal knight only owes you 40 days of service per year, plus your standard of upkeep goes down and you lose the discretionary income from that manor.

scarik
07-02-2017, 06:03 AM
Like Mr. 47 says you certainly can do all those things if you want but most lords won't since it reduces your own income. If the knight did something spectacular for you then offering vassalage makes sense though normally you'd do it through a marriage to a daughter or heiress whose wardship you control.

In the later periods King Arthur reserves the right to knight people as I recall. Earlier any lord can do so.

Greg Stafford
07-04-2017, 12:32 AM
Others have answered well
I will just add to the discussion, and mostly back them up


Is a knight allowed to give manors as grant or gifts to other knights (in exchange for their loyalty)?

Not without the permission of his own liege lord
And as has been said, giving away manors impoverishes the original holder
What would his heir think of that?
All that being said, giving it as a Gift is less painful than as a Grant.


Is a rich knight allowed to knight others (as household knights or landed knights)?

In the pre-Uther era anyone with the equipment can pretty much claim to be a knight on their own
In the Uther Period the right devolves to Great Lords and barons
In Anarchy, anythign goes
In Boy King Period the king specifies only tenanats in chief should do it
(note should, because other lords continue)


How frequent (or allowed) would this be during the Conquest / Romance period?

By these periods Arthur is taking tighter control of this right, but the tenants-in-chief still do it too, but not any old knight can knight others
I don't think Arthur ever claims complete control
But of course, people would prefer to be knighted by the High King, and may request it of him
Or of someone else too, maybe Lancelot or Gawaine, or of course their own liege lord

scarik
07-04-2017, 04:41 AM
I don't think Arthur ever claims complete control


I say he does maily because he institutes the policy of swearing to the High King. Arthur himself then devolves those oaths to the Barons who command the particular knights but it reads like only the king can declare someone a knight. Which is compatible with the modern method where only the Monarch* can bestow a knighthood.

*In this case QE2.

Morien
07-04-2017, 08:27 AM
Greg, just a clarification on one thing you said...



In the pre-Uther era anyone with the equipment can pretty much claim to be a knight on their own
In the Uther Period the right devolves to Great Lords and barons
In Anarchy, anythign goes
In Boy King Period the king specifies only tenanats in chief should do it
(note should, because other lords continue)

Since Great Lords and Barons are, by definition, tenants in chief, you mean that in Boy King period, Arthur returns to the Utherian model? Who are the other lords in this example? Multiple-manor Vassal knights knighting people as their own household knights?

dwarinpt
07-04-2017, 04:39 PM
Not without the permission of his own liege lord
And as has been said, giving away manors impoverishes the original holder
What would his heir think of that?
All that being said, giving it as a Gift is less painful than as a Grant.

Of course, but then again, if it doesn't change his Grade of Maintenance, that consideration is out of the equation. Let's assume, PK A owns 5 manors, which - all said and done - provide him with a Rich or Superlative Rich status. Let's assume for a moment that, after all expenses (entourage, investments, etc.), PK A is a Rich knight. If he enfeoffs a manor or two with no change in Grade of Maintenance, that should be possible, right? The heir is not shortchanged, the current family is stills Rich and so forth. I assume the PK would reward his own Household Knights for services rendered, etc.

Now, for PK A, what would be the benefit of having vassals as oposed to household knights?

scarik
07-06-2017, 07:28 PM
Now, for PK A, what would be the benefit of having vassals as oposed to household knights?

Prestige. A lord's station depends on his wealth and the quality of his servants. A vassal is more prestigious than a bachelor.

The peerage as it were is:
King
Barons (with Dukes and Earls/Counts being higher than other Barons)
Vassals of Barons with their own vassals and bachelors
Vassals with household knights
Vassals with only their one manor.
Other knights
Squires
Everyone else

Greg Stafford
07-07-2017, 12:32 AM
Greg, just a clarification on one thing you said...
Since Great Lords and Barons are, by definition, tenants in chief, you mean that in Boy King period, Arthur returns to the Utherian model?

Yes
He starts his reign reinstating the laws of his father
Changes them later


Who are the other lords in this example? Multiple-manor Vassal knights knighting people as their own household knights?
Yes
but sometimes even knights
Especially famous ones, like Lancelot

dwarinpt
07-07-2017, 12:50 AM
Using GPC as a guide, bestowing knighthood is established as a royal prerogative during the Tournament Period, meaning some lesser barons and knights can still do it in previous periods. Aside from the King, only their designated representatives, such as Knights of the Round Table, can make knights which isn't much of a problem since this PK is a Round Table Knight. Since giving land reinforces the bond between lord and vassal, and it's also a stepping stone to become a Banneret, this is something the player wants.

According to KAP, the player must have a handfull of knights and sergeantts (open to interpretation, but let's say 2 knights and 3 sergeants) plus 3 or more VASSAL knights. Later in KAP, the retinue example mentions 3 household knights. I'm just eyeballing numbers here, since I'm not detail-oriented and I don't want to bog the campaign down in minutia. So, 2 household knights and 4 vassal knights as the bare minimum to become a banneret, that's 6 manors, at least, and I'm being a bit generous here. Even if the PK does not make his own knights, surely there are many landless knights that would jump at the oportunity of becoming household knights or marrying the lovely daughter of a vassal knight and receive land as dowery.

Since my campaign is now progressing to the Irish Campaign (529 AD), and King Arthur will offer land as 'speculative grants' like GPC, perhaps this is the oportunity the player is looking for.