Could somewhere help me out here. I'm uncertain re Chirurgery and Healing -

Example. One of my PCs took a Major Wound and checked his CN (Chirurgey Needed) box. The wound was for 16 points and left him on 5 remaining HP. After the session I checked on the rules and told him that each week he will recover 5 HPs from natural Healing (3 normal +2 for his Pagan Religious Bonus) but lose 1d6 points from deterioration unless he receives Chirurgery. He replied that he's not going to bother with Chirurgery because the law of averages says he will recover full HP anyway, which is true. I told him ok but then he will still be classed as "Unhealthy" and may receive aggravation damage even when he recovers full HP... but this doesn't feel right to me. Not least because he then said he'll recover to full HP then get a bit of Chirurgery to remove the check to his CN box.. which seems a bit of a cop out.

Am I missing something?
Should the wound that caused the CN box check only begin to heal naturally *after* it has received successful Chirurgery?
Should Chirurgery rolls be required until the wound in question has fully healed to return the PC to Healthy status(rather than just the 2 or 3 rolls as suggested in the rule book).
Cost wise, KAP5 lists a chirurgeon as costing 20d per day. Does the PC have to pay this every day he is being treated (ie140d per week) or is it a one off cost per week of Chirurgery. If you're healing for several months 140d per week - over ?2 libra a month - seems very high.

The original rules specified no healing until successful Chirurgery. Off hand I am not sure how 5th edition was edited

Tell him his wounds become infected and the result is:

1d6 Infected Wound Table

1. He smells a lot is shunned at court, nobody like maggots falling in their food or drink roll again next week.
2. Loss of left Arm
3. Loss of right Arm
4. Loss of left Leg
5. Loss of right Leg
6. Dead blood poisoning..sorry.

;D

Hope this helps...bloody players...averages...grumble...grumble...

Cheers,

BigSteveUK

I've checked 4th ed and it states the same as 5th. The oldest rules I have are in the Book of Knights, and that has a slightly different take on things;

"If your character has checked Chirurgery Needed, you are Unhealthy and need medical attention. If you do not receive successful treatment within a week of becoming Unhealthy, or do not continue to receive attention each week thereafter until fully healed, you automatically suffer Deterioration. Only one attempt at Chirurgery (simple check) can be made per week. Success prevents deterioration, failure means you deteriorate: roll 1 d6 damage per week. Take this loss off Current Hit Points. It is not a wound, and First Aid cannot cure it. Generally, you have until Sunday at noon each week to be treated."

Steve, I like your inventiveness, but it's a bit too arbitrary for me. I like my players to know that I'm playing by the same rules that they are. That way, if they die, then they know it's not just me being vindictive. 8)

The original rules specified no healing until successful Chirurgery.

That's what I always thought. Have we been playing it wrong?!?

Well my 1st edition is at home; I could have interpreted it wrong all these years. But I thought that was Greg's intent, anyway. Game Designer's intent should trump written rules

KAP5 p126 says

"DETERIORATION
Deterioration affects only unhealthy characters who do not receive a successful Chirurgery roll during the week. Deterioration causes the loss of 1d6 hit points per week (no wound is recorded, and First Aid cannot help). As with natural healing, this damage occurs on Sunday at noon. The net result of the two hit point adjustments may be a gain in hit points, a loss, or nil."

This means that even without Chirurgery a high healing character (usually Pagans) will most likely recover fully. I do somewhat like the idea of not having to force my characters to have Chirurgery (after all, if they are on low hit points a bad roll could kill them), but the downside of not doing it is non-existent at the moment. So I'm thinking Deterioration damage should increase by 1 point per week (1d6, 1d6+1, 1d6+2 etc) or that natural healing will stop the moment Deterioration damage exceeds natural healing for the week. eg a character of 3 Healing suffers a result of 4, 5 or 6 on the die. He takes the damage and can gain no more from natural healing. This means you can risk it to some degree and hope that you recover in time.

I am not sure I would allow an unhealthy character (i.e. one with the Chirurgery Needed box checked) to heal well without the proper medical attention. The word needed in Chiurgery Needed is a clue. At the very least, I would treat it as an automatic fumble on the Chirurgery Roll, causing an extra 1d3 damage (in addition to deterioration). Hence, even the care of a lousy Chirurgeon would be better than no care at all.

How can your broken bones ever heal properly if no-one with the ability and knowledge is there to set them?


If the ?Chirurgery Needed? box is checked, the character is unhealthy and needs a physician?s care. Any physical exertion is liable to worsen his condition. (p. 126)


Unhealthy characters are incapable of taking care of themselves properly (p. 126)


Normally, two or three consecutive successful Chirurgery rolls will allow a patient to improve from ?unhealthy? to ?healthy,? at the Gamemaster?s discretion. With more severe wounds, a longer period may be necessary. (p. 127)

Without proper care, I would require the total recovery of all hit points before the character could be treated as healthy. Since an unhealthy character is subject to aggravation, even light activity can be a threat to the character's health.


Violence in Pendragon should be realistic and terrifying, never casual or routine, and the best way to achieve this is to make injuries a serious matter. (p.122)

I guess its up to Greg to chime in here if he has the time to settle this.

1st edition had no healing at all without chirurgery. It changed in either 3rd or 4th edition to allowing the you to get healing bonus whether chirurgery succeeded or failed.
I suppose you could easily interpret that as follows:
Successful Chirurgery: gain heal rate.
Failed Chirurgery: gain Heal Rate, lose 1d6.
No Chirurgery at all: lose d6, no Heal Rate.

However, I have played a long campaign under the 1st edition rules, and they are seriously bloody and lethal (well, unless you chirurgerers routinely have high skills anyway).

What I would suggest is: use the rules as printed. But not that the knight will take additional damage whenever he takes physical action until fully healed.
He loses a point of damage every day that he moves around, 2 points if he engages in moderate activity, and 3 points for serious activity like a fight. A long fight could deal more damage.
These penalties are listed in the rulebook. A character engaging in most forms of adventure is taking at least 1 point of damage every day - I imagine he'll soon want to spend some time in bed with a healer (not like that!) to accelerate the healing process.

What I would suggest is: use the rules as printed. But not that the knight will take additional damage whenever he takes physical action until fully healed.
He loses a point of damage every day that he moves around, 2 points if he engages in moderate activity, and 3 points for serious activity like a fight. A long fight could deal more damage.


That's what I would do too although it's not likely to impede my knights that greatly, well, not yet. In the 3 sessions I have GMd so far the PCs have only been on low hit points at the end of the adventure. Any damage suffered - regardless how much - is almost inconsequential as they have all winter to rest up and recover. Yes I could have their manors come under attack or have some other unexpected danger threaten them (and I might do that in the future) but that would be exceptional.

In my last session, because I had 2 knights suffer major wounds, I told them things would not be quite so straightforward this time. That's what lead me to check the healing and Chirurgery rules and ultimately start this thread. :)

I guess I was just looking to see how other GMs handled it; following the rules as written or using a house rule.

One more thing. In my opinion, the point here is not to punish the player. If the pc's are doing fine, that is not really a problem. Rejoice! ;D I do, however, believe, that Chirurgery Needed means that Chirurgery is, well, needed. Anyway, as long as you use the rules fairly and consistently you'll be in a good position.

However, don't be afraid to discuss the situation with your group of players. You are all in this together, and it is perfectly all right to seek each others' advice. The point, after all, is to have a satisfying gaming experience together.

Best wishes,

Peter

Thanks, Peter. I totally agree. I'm not a vindictive GM, I want my player's to do well. I just want to be consistent, decide on a ruling that I feel is fair and reflects my gaming style, and stick with it from that point on.

I think I'm going to use a very slightly altered version of what Darren suggested;
Successful Chirurgery: gain heal rate - no deterioration.
Failed Chirurgery: gain Heal Rate, lose 1d6.
No Chirurgery at all: lose d6, gain heal rate, but no healing can take place (ie your natural healing can prevent you getting worse, but even if the dice indicate otherwise you can never actually get better. This means even high healing Pagans will eventually deteriorate if left long enough.

Ah the foolish! :-)

Sure, his healing rate is good enough to compensate for deterioration [unless you get a string of 6's on the rolls, which could be killer, pardon the pun.] But remember that aggravation can occur on an hourly basis and anything more than eating, sleeping or resting is going to cause him damage.

So unless he stays bedridden and quiet, as even walking slowly and talking will cause an unhealthy person damage, he is in trouble. The deterioration may not be a threat but the aggravation surely will be. And even if he manages to get up to full hit points he'll need several successful chirurgery checks in order to become healthy.

So it become important to know what he does in that time off, in order to see his daily aggravation or how he deals with his manor, and vassal duties if he decides to stay bedridden.

And woe be on him if he has an enemy that hears about this! If he's too bedridden to even defend his place for fear of aggravation it would make his manor easy to raid and he would be a perfect target to take for ransom. And if he tries to fight back the damage from battle plus the 3 points of damage from aggravation could easily overcome his healing rate.

It seems rather reckless to refuse chirurgery. Either he will be getting aggravation by doing his knightly duties or he will leaving his duties unfulfilled and potentially leaving his manor without defense. Because I know "I" wouldn't risk my life defending a manor of someone who refuses to get their wounded tended.

Just a few things to think about.

I guess its up to Greg to chime in here if he has the time to settle this.


I apologize for taking so long to reply. The responses and discussions that came up are instructive and entertaining, and there were so many that I dared not reply until I was sure I knew what I was doing.
I looked through old files (hard enough to sort out amidst the debris of my storage system) to see if it was another WW editorial "fix" that made it unclear. *sigh* No such luck--it was my omission of this fact.

Here is the resolution:
If the "Needs Chirurgery" box is checked, you do not get natural healing unless you have a successful Chirurgery roll. You do deteriorate as normal, and suffer Aggravation, of course.

The "Needs Chirurgery" box is unchecked when the character reaches half of his full hit points.

--Greg

Huh. So you need to keep making Chirugery checks until they are at half HP or more? We've been playing it that you just need to make that first one successful ...

Good to know!

I think KAP mentions that 2-3 successful Chirurgery rolls will bring a character from unhealthy to healthy, at the GMs discretion. I like the idea that it's set to half of the character's maximum hit point total.