Some background. The PK is a Mesne Lord who leads his own Eschille (banneret in earlier editions), is already married to the heiress Lady Adwen, and serves as Roderick's court champion (after one of the other PK's killed Sir Jaradan in 486).

It's 487, and only two PK's went on the Lindsey embassy rather than the Naval Raids. When the party reached Lincoln and found the Duke not at home, the two players volunteered to go find him and bring news that the king has arrived. After five days searching, they found his hunting party in the Southwood, camped and resting by a stream. They first ran into a pair of knights standing sentry, who asked their business. Before the PK in question, the customary party face, could speak, the other blurted out that they were hunting deer. The sentries then tried to arrest them as poachers, since they were ostensibly hunting on the duke's land. Taking the demand to throw down their weapons as an affront to their honor as knights, the players cried "Hey Nonny Nonny to that!" and fought all eight knights of the duke's escort, and WON. The Duke took them for assassins and tried to flee for his life, but didn't get very far when he fumbled his horsemanship and hurtled head-first into a ditch. The first PK explained the situation, leaving out the part where his comrade implied that they were poachers, and escorted Corneus back to Lincoln, since they had deprived him of his originals. Two of the knights were dead, the other six were taken for ransom, and ransomed (brokered by Earl Roderick) upon arrival, bloodmoney for the slain going back to Lindsey as well of course. The matter was kept as under-wraps as possible, since Corneus didn't want anyone asking too many questions about why he was hiding from the king or why his guards attacked the king's messengers (the truth that one of them claimed they were poachers would be too unbelievable to be uttered aloud in court). However, it's not really something that can be hidden from the castle staff when eight half-naked knights come riding through the through the postern tied to their horses, and have to be cared for.

I bought the Book of Feasts, and decided to whip it out for the feast at the submission of Lindsey. One of the cards that came up was "A Chance Encounter", the gist of which is the knight in question might go off with a beautiful noblewoman to have a roll in the hay. The player was free to refuse on a chaste roll of course, but he thought it would be funnier if he rolled flirting and failed and got himself slapped instead. Well, despite his flirting skill of 2, he rolled a crit. After the deed was done, a name was demanded of me, and in the moment of my deciding, I just couldn't help myself but have her be Cornelia ferch Corneus, daughter of the Duke of Lindsey, snagging a piece of the young and handsome Roman lord who beat the snot out of her father's knights and helped retrieve Excalibur. Those bored, spoiled, pagan girls, what can I say. I preemptively rolled childbirth, and she's due for a beautiful baby boy come winter.

To give him a fair chance, I ordered a recognize roll with a healthy heaping of modifiers, so that he could choose to go back on it if he succeeded, but it wasn't enough.

This decided, I then had to have a long think about the story implications of it. Initially, it didn't seem rosy. I considered having the Duke simply having him arrested and tortured to death, or send his knights round to his lands and burn all the steads and kill all the peasants, or demand his head of Earl Roderick, or challenge him to a duel, but I decided against all that, firstly because I'd be a dick GM if I allowed a game-ending catastrophe to come about from one random feast encounter, secondly because none of that really solves the problem, but still, something has to follow from this, surely?

Perhaps it counts as violating guest right? But he has committed no crime as far as the host culture is concerned, this is Corneus of Lindsey, the Hammer of the Church, a notable pagan we're talking about. Premarital sex isn't profane in paganism.

Perhaps he might be brought up on Adultery? But Adultery doesn't apply to men, unless it's in regards to sleeping with a married woman.

Perhaps the duke might get her to say it was rape? But the entire royal court is visiting, surely it would have been a bit too crowded for something like that to go unnoticed. Even if he were accused, he could demand a trial by combat, which would be the worst idea since he's a professional duelist and already wiped the floor with some of his best knights.

Perhaps he'll have her married off to conceal the matter, but the problem is that in the way that the scene played out, they were seen leaving the hall together by one or two people, so enough tongues have already begun wagging that a scandal would be unavoidable. Also, what's to be done with the child? If the PK claims it as his own, then that leaves the child, the step-father, and the mother in a very awkward spot.

So the most logical conclusion to this situation right now seems to be that the PK takes Cornelia as a second wife. According to "Pagan Shore", polygamy is accepted as perfectly normal in Ireland during the reign of Arthur at least, so why not pagan Cumbria of the Uther Period? It may just be because it didn't occur to anyone to include, or they have and I've just skimmed past it, but I can't seem to find anything in the 4 or 5.1 books that says that multiple wives aren't allowed in cymric society. Considering that until the 11th century, in either ignorance or rejection of church law, many priests and bishops had wives and children, and I mean wives and children mind you not concubines and bastards, it seems to me that even christians of 5th century mythic Britain wouldn't squint too hard at polygynist state of being. Perhaps banning the practice can be one of King Arthur's reforms when he comes to power.

So the the question I have, is what would be an appropriate Dowry, if any, for the daughter of the Duke of Lindsey, under these circumstances?

Heheh. First, your game is marvelous! Delightful chaos is delightful. I'll return to this with some questions and a request at the end.

Backing through the matters, and with this totally IMO only:

* If there is a marriage between the dishonored daughter of the duke and a knight, then the appropriate dowry would be three feet of steel. If everything goes well at the altar, the knight can keep the steel. If not, it gets pulled out of him later before he's "clad in clay".

* Quick googling finds this article on marriage laws in Celtic Britain (https://lilydewaruile.wordpress.com/2011/05/14/marriage-laws-in-celtic-britain/), which supports the idea that in some pagan areas, in the 5th Century, you would find polygamy practiced. So a pagan Corneus might indeed find this to be an option. The point is that the church (both British and Catholic branches) would NOT find it acceptable, nor was it Roman custom to embrace polygamy. If PK went through with that deal then he'd be in a peck of trouble with the Church back home in Salisbury, a peck of trouble with Lady Adwen and her relatives, and probably a peck of trouble with Roderick--who at the very least doesn't need the distraction and the implication that his generosity in giving PK Lady Adwen was meanly treated! Lady Adwen would have grounds for divorce, taking her lands and children with her, and the Church would side with her even though Uther probably would not.

* The normal course of affairs (ha!) for this would be for the father of the girl to have her shuffled off to a nunnery as quietly as possible, and pay to ensure wagging tongues are quieted. That payment might come, for a powerful enough figure like the Duke, from the PK--extracted as weregild. Saxons! has some lists for valuing women so handled, if I recall correctly. Now, Corneus is pagan, so he might not immediately think of the nunnery idea, in which case the girl is stuck raising her boy in his house until he can find someone who wants to marry his devalued goods. This was also a common occurrence.

* Even if the PK does not take an Honor hit, he's arguably violated reasonable Hospitality by absconding with his host's valuable goods--the virginity of his daughter! Sure, pagans are cool with premarital sex (and even conception, which helps demonstrate fertility after all), but Corneus didn't give permission nor was an appropriate "no rules" holiday in effect (like Beltane). Love(Family) demands the Duke take action, and if he chooses to moderate himself by capitalizing on the situation (e.g. the PK is Glorious), that may not apply to some of his impassioned vassal and household knights. The fact the PK was one of two who beat the whey out of the Duke's guard is immaterial: the honor of their lord is at stake and everyone's immortal when they roll a Passion. This could, if said knight were base and had recently received reason to take other offense (*cough*), extend to "solving" the problem by arranging the death of Lady Adwen. "Oh! Will no one rid me of this knight's troublesome marriage!"

* The PK, when he becomes aware of his son, should have a Love(Family) and Generosity check reaction to determine is depth of obligation to care for the girl, who will at least suffer a major Honor hit and may drop below noble status thereby. If her father kicks her out, she may end up in a common occupation somewhere (the legends include ladies who end up as shepherdesses, for example). Very likely the girl would seek out the PK as a concubine if she cannot be married.

All in all, you have an excellent demonstration case for why proper knights keep it in their pants--especially once married.

Now a small request: might you post details on Corneus' family in your game? I'm anticipating using him later in my own efforts and have found little info.

Thanks,

--Khanwulf

Heheh. First, your game is marvelous!

Thanks!


* If there is a marriage between the dishonored daughter of the duke and a knight, then the appropriate dowry would be three feet of steel. If everything goes well at the altar, the knight can keep the steel. If not, it gets pulled out of him later before he's "clad in clay".

Yeah yeah, I know, the traditional solution would be to knock his head off. But like I said, my tingly GM senses are telling me to treat this a s a fail forward moment instead of Game Over.


The point is that the church (both British and Catholic branches) would NOT find it acceptable, nor was it Roman custom to embrace polygamy. If PK went through with that deal then he'd be in a peck of trouble with the Church back home in Salisbury, a peck of trouble with Lady Adwen and her relatives, and probably a peck of trouble with Roderick--who at the very least doesn't need the distraction and the implication that his generosity in giving PK Lady Adwen was meanly treated! Lady Adwen would have grounds for divorce, taking her lands and children with her, and the Church would side with her even though Uther probably would not.

You would be spot on the money if it weren't for two factors: a) Adwen is herself a pagan in my game, and an old-fashioned pagan at that, under the wing of one of the Ladies of the Lake (the PK browses this forum so I'm not specifying whether or not it's the evil one). b) According to the core 5.1 book, only adultery or consanguinity is grounds for divorce, men aren't capable of committing adultery, and they aren't even vaguely related so consanguinity is right out. Since it says in a previous paragraph that there isn't any divorce at all, I'm assuming that these exceptions are meant to be for annulment.

I should also point out that even Augustine of Hippo wrote that the main reason that the church didn't approve of polygamy was because it was banned by the (pagan) Roman Emperor Diocletian in the 3rd century a.d, and the early western chruch was very much a continuation of the empire. Other than a few passages that CAN be interpreted as endorsing monogamy "one flesh" and all that, the taboo of polygamy is not scriptural. One of Jesus' parables in Mark concerned a bridegroom marrying ten virgins. The article you linked had the end date for the acceptiability of the practice in the "6th-7th" centuries, well we're in the 5th century, Uther period is supposed to be "dark ages", things aren't supposed to be getting high medieval until the anarchy period, or Arthur's reign.

From what I can find on wikipedia, one of the first big declarations against polygamy was the Council of Hertford in 673.

However you're probably right that the Roman Church probably isn't going to like it, but what are they going to do, call the daughter of the duke of lincoln a whore and a concubine?


Very likely the girl would seek out the PK as a concubine if she cannot be married.

This was also my first instinct, but considering the ultimate conclusion of him banishing his daughter will just be the PK keeping her for his pleasure, wouldn't it just look better on everyone if they were wed?

In fact, now that I've slept on it, I think I've worked it all out. There are two stories that can be spun out of this week. I think Corneus has to be a pretty smart cookie to make it as far as he does. His head isn't just a helmet rack.

Story A (the truth): PK and another PK found the Duke hiding from the king's visit, and completely thrashed the Duke's knights despite being outnumbered 4:1, and then essentially took them prisoner to bring him to his own castle, and he quietly handed over a giant chest full of silver for the ransoms and for buying the horses and armor back. Then to make matters worse, at the feast, where the PK's were eating his food and drinking his ale, the PK seduced, deflowered, and impregnated his beautiful young daughter. The Duke has the PK dragged before him and executed. There's no reason that Roderick and the other PK shouldn't let the tale of the Duke's knights ignoble defeat in the Southwood go unspread. So even with this catharsis, the Duke and his knights are totally humiliated, down a giant lump of silver that Roderick still has under guard for the living PK, and he has to find a new man to marry his dishonored daughter and foster the little bastard, with the shame public. The Duke looks very weak, cowardly, and innefectual at the end of this story, which is a dangerous position to be in for a lord in the dark ages.

Story B (bald-faced lie): The Duke was out on a short hunt to procure some prime venison for the King's arrival (his favorite!) when they picked up the track of a small warband. Naturally, they followed them but were lead straight into an ambush! Cunning Picts! forty-fifty, a hundred or more! Beset they were! Sirs Primus-Octavius fought bravely and nobly, but Sirs Quintus and Sextus fell to their death in the heat of battle. Then, who should arrive just at their darkest moment but the King's messengers, the two PK's! They turned the tide of the skirmish and saved their hides. THAT is why the PK's had to escort the Duke home, with his knights tied to their horses, they had fallen in noble battle against a horde of barbarians! Thank the gods that most of them will live to tell their grandsons of the glory! So impressed was the Duke by the first PK's prowess in arms and charming countenance, and his personal account of the adventure of the sword lake, a preview of his later rendition at the feast, that on the ride home, he betrothed the knight to his youngest daughter Cornelia. When they arrived back at the castle and the Duke had to discretely fork over a giant sum of money in a big chest, it wasn't ransoms, no sir! It was Cornelia's dowry! And then at the feast, when the PK and Cornelia went arm and arm out of the hall and into the stable, to re-ermerge with straw in their hair half an hour later, it was not fornication, for they had already been betrothed, and were simply getting "acquainted", oh to be young again!

Now, being a duke's daughter, she won't be content with a mistresse's upkeep, she needs to be maintained like a duke's daughter! 5L a year out of pocket. Since the dowry is all in treasure and none of it is in land, the duke has handily tied a lodestone around the PK's neck, a white elephant as it were, to soak up all the treasure he has until he dies, after which she will then take a third of his land away from his heirs until she dies. If he fails to to keep her at a dignified level of upkeep, well sir, Corneus has grounds for grievance! With Horses! And Steel! and Fire!

And of course, even with Adwen okay with Polygamy on principle, there's still going to be friction. Part of the revenge.

It honestly seems like the most beneficial outcome for Corneus, and the most interesting way to move the story forward, so I think that's what I'll do.


Now a small request: might you post details on Corneus' family in your game? I'm anticipating using him later in my own efforts and have found little info.

Sure! Corneus was an Ambrosius appointee, not Uther's, and he dies "of old age" in 508, which tells me he ought to be at the very least middle-aged in 487. We all know how ludicrously long it takes for people to die of old age in Pendragon, so if he was say 70 when he keeled over, he'd have been 49 in 487, of the same generation as Uther and co. My guess is that the main batch of warlords wouldn't really have settled down and taken wives until AFTER the Ambrosius' glorious revolution in 466, so none of Corneus' children are can be older than 20 in the early part of 487.

I have him as the father of Sir Lane of Lindsey, the banneret who liases with Countess Ellen a few times during the anarchy. I had him make an early appearance as the Duke's squire giving the players a thousand-yard glare during the Southwood incident. I have him as 15 now, which has him knighted in 497, and plan to have him die in 503 at the battle of Lindsey, since that's the first and last we ever hear of him in the GPC. In 508, Corneus dies and is succeeded by his nephew Derfel.

He also has a daughter, 16 in 487, Cornelia. I made her up on the spot. Since Cornelia now exists, I then had to invent an elder daughter to explain why Lindsey doesn't pass to Cornelia after the death of Sir Lane, have her 18 in 487, call her Llyndawse or something like that. She's already married at this point, her husband will die at the feast of St. Alban's, how about the second wife of Sir Sulien Count of Bedegraine, that's a smart and timely match, and she'll be a widow for most of the Anarchy. Her widow's portion will precipitate a fair few border disputes, although they will finally resolve their differences and band together in 502. She's not the mother of the future Earl Sanam of Bedegraine, he will have been the product of his first wife, and now already 14 yeas old, he has to be since he has a ~16 year old daughter for Arthur to deflower and sire Sir Loholt on in 510. Lyndawse will only have daughters by Sulien.

With the death of Sir Lane, the inheritance of the Dukedom will now be in question, it will pass either to his middle-aged daughter who herself has only daughters, or it will pass to his nephew Derfel, who is not yet a knight but is the closest living male relative. Corneus, knowing that he is in ill health and aiming to avoid a Stephen-Matilda situation after his passing, will cut the Gordian knot as it were In 504, and marry the cousins Derfel and Llyndawse to eachother, him 19, and her 35. They will have two sons in two years, but I've stopped planning that far now since I think this is enough of an idea. Now, Derfel is never referenced by name again, and there's never any mention of a Duke of Lindsey dying after Corneus, so Sir Derfel is for keeps for the rest of the campaign. He has to at least make it to Camlann in 565, so let's say he's 80 years old when that happens, born in 485, currently a toddler, the eldest son of Corneus' younger brother, who he possibly keeps as his seneschal, say he's the steward who first greets Uther when he gets to Lindsey and asks where the Duke is, and then who keeps them busy with feasting and hunting. Since we've already got an L theme going here, we'll call him Sir Lindor of the Truffle if anyone bothers asking what his name is.

Very interesting campaign thread. Please do keep us posted.

Yeah, this is why I generally* don't make the random amorous encounters happen with major NPCs' family members. If the departure from the court was noticed, then, IMC, the young couple would have been interrupted enroute to the haystacks: "My lady, your father, THE DUKE, wants a word..." But given that you played it out, I think you have a reasonable enough a plan going forward, especially as the PK in question seems to be a reasonably Glorious one after all the heroics he has pulled...

* Exceptions happen, of course... In our Middle-Earth campaign (currently set in the closing century of the Second Age), one of the PKs managed to crit Flirting and Dancing, making a very favourable impression on King Anarion's daughter, and then proceeded to crit some more in the following scenes. So the princess in question is adamant that she will have none other, and the PK has been trying to win Anarion's approval over the last few decades (being pure-blooded Numenoreans, they have time). Of course it helps that the PKs are roughly on the minor baron level (of 50 or so Lords of Gondor), so the chances are good that the PK will succeed in his endeavor, eventually.



Now, being a duke's daughter, she won't be content with a mistresse's upkeep, she needs to be maintained like a duke's daughter! 5L a year out of pocket. Since the dowry is all in treasure and none of it is in land, the duke has handily tied a lodestone around the PK's neck, a white elephant as it were, to soak up all the treasure he has until he dies, after which she will then take a third of his land away from his heirs until she dies. If he fails to to keep her at a dignified level of upkeep, well sir, Corneus has grounds for grievance! With Horses! And Steel! and Fire!

And of course, even with Adwen okay with Polygamy on principle, there's still going to be friction. Part of the revenge.

It honestly seems like the most beneficial outcome for Corneus, and the most interesting way to move the story forward, so I think that's what I'll do.


Agreed. This seems to be the best way of dealing with the situation, although it will definitely be wrought with complications as already noted:
1) The Church would not recognize bigamy. Given Corneus' reputation as the enemy of the Church*, I wouldn't be surprised if they were MORE strict about this, just to use this as a cudgel to beat him with.
2) The Count would be under no obligation to recognize any children from the second marriage, nor the marriage itself, as legitimate (and encouraged by the Church NOT TO). On the other hand, depending on the political considerations, he might not want to upset the Duke. I can see him pulling the PK aside and making VERY clear that the second wife is not welcome in Sarum, but ought to stay in the PK's manor, to avoid embarrassment.
3) Very good opportunity to introduce a lot of friction at home, as you noted. For example, Adwen might assert that as the first wife (and the legitimate one!), she has precedence, while Cornelia might claim that as a Duke's daughter, she takes precedence over a mere knight's daughter. There is the age difference as well.

Finally, I'd note that ever since Book of the Warlord, the society during Uther Pendragon's reign bears much more resemblance to 11th century Norman England, rather than the 5th century one.

* I think we missed a chance in BoU by making Corneus a pagan and the enemy of the Church. It would have made his conflict with Uther more understandable if he would have been a more Christian Duke, in contrast to Uther's irreverent King. Oh well, hindsight 20/20.



Sure! Corneus was an Ambrosius appointee, not Uther's, and he dies "of old age" in 508, which tells me he ought to be at the very least middle-aged in 487.


BoU has him 37 in 480, so he would have been born during 452. That would make him 44-45 in 487. I think he dies in 509 in GPC, not 508? Which would make him 66-67, already a respectable enough an age, especially if he suffered bad wounds in the Battle of the Netley Marsh.



Now, Derfel is never referenced by name again, and there's never any mention of a Duke of Lindsey dying after Corneus, so Sir Derfel is for keeps for the rest of the campaign.

This does not necessarily follow. GPC (and Malory before that) DOES NOT give dates for all the nobles, not even the Dukes. For example, I don't think Earl Sanam or King Uriens* are ever said to die, and Brastias ticks along until at least the Grail Quest, albeit as a hermit, if my memory serves (I didn't check). Now this doesn't mean that Sanam or Uriens survive all the way to Camlann, but just that they are no longer that important to the story. So you can do what you want.

* Quick check on Malory revealed that Uriens is still actively participating in tournaments when Sir Urre is introduced in Twilight (Uriens would be at least 90 at this time by GPC chronology...). Personally, I take that with a grain of salt, since the GPC chronology and Le Morte D'Arthur chronology need not be the same. And probably aren't, especially since Malory does not give firm dates other than can be inferred from the ages of the main characters. Also, in Historia Regnum Britanniae, Uther's war with Gorlois follows on the heels of St. Albans (where Gorlois participates), Arthur is not given to Merlin, and there is no Sword in the Stone nor civil war. Instead, we are plunged straight into the Saxon Wars (although with Saxon invaders, as there are no permanent Saxon Kingdoms yet). This is just to show that GPC deviates quite a lot from the 'source materials', when there is a story reason to do so, and in the process, ends up padding the 'runtime' of the campaign by several years. Which means more years to play and a longer campaign, so I am not complaining, really. :) (Now that I think about it, I think there was an old thread about cutting GPC down to a shorter campaign, but I can't look for the link now.)

Well, they might call the daughter of the Duke of Lindsey a whore and a concubine, since they have so little to lose with Mr. Pagan Church-Hammer anyway!

Corneus is ambitious, holds foreign lands, and hasn't tended to his Homage(Uther)--all enough to put the man on the King's horsecrap-list. It might have been nice to have him with a high Love(God) and Hate(X Church), to highlight differences with Uther, but frankly that's unnecessary and it means the dispute between them is political more than personal. And that's important since Corneus does a 180 on presentation of Excalibur, which is the REAL reason he's highlighted in this phase, as a counterpoint to Gorlois not rolling-over and letting the King boink his wife!

And yes, I cited the article on late Celtic polygamy because it both supported your course and called it into question: the key point being which aspect of the setting you wanted to hinge it on--5th century actual date or "enchanted" 11th century Norman trappings? Either would be appropriate depending on your campaign. Historically speaking even by the 5th century Britain was pretty thoroughly Christianized in a process that would only roll back partly thanks to the Saxon conquest. And then the Saxons themselves convert in big batches by the late 6th century. KAP's patchwork pagan/Christian religious map is an acknowledge anachronism and that's just fine.

This is a long way of saying "your Story B is both engaging and probable and does the characters justice; you go man!" Very nice! Oh the trouble women bring....

Thanks for the family story! I will borrow portions of it. But... what about Sir Lucan? He's cited as a son of Corneus and was old enough to participate notably during the Battle of Bedegrine at least. I've always been confused why Derfel inherited instead of him, but assume the easiest fix would be to make Derfel an older son instead of a nephew. Perhaps Corneus himself has multiple wives in the old tradition of marrying widows of honored warriors to ensure their support? Then Derfel might be the first son of the first wife and Lucan of a second, even if you make Lucan born before Derfel?

In my Pendragon, the wife of a banneret under Corneus, Sinai, bore him Bedivere and then married the Duke after her husband passed, producing Lucan for him. So Bedivere and Lucan are proper half-brothers, though only Lucan is the son of a Duke. Following this discussion I may make Sinai the second wife, with the first producing Sir Lane and then Derfel. When Corneus kicks off in 509 this sets up a dispute to be settled by Arthur.

Looping back to your family: Llyndawse could marry Gynnfardd, Baron of Horsemane Fort during Uther but a place that falls into ruin during the Anarchy and is never rebuilt even though it sits on the main road from Leir's Castle/Town to Camelaird. That way you don't have her engaged in another polygamous marriage (they should be rare, I do think, and used to highlight conflict between church and pagan traditions).

Side note on people living vigorously for so long: in my Pendragon I take this as the influence of supernatural factors on the characters. This at minimum means Merlin's enchantment, and at maximum means other entanglements. But I'm also jamming the setting together hard with Onyx Path's products, so the shadows very greatly.

--Khanwulf

This has been up long enough that I figure I can own up to this being my PK. :)

Caius Persidius Pacilus, Sir Persidius, Lord Wayford, Champion of Salisbury is to the Romans what Worf is to the Klingons. He speaks Latin, is well read (Read 15), enjoys tabula and doesn't drink ale. His famous Traits are Forgiving, Modest and Valorous with Chaste and Merciful coming close. His Chaste was 16, but his pagan (first) wife is a sorceress and has used her magic and her charms to weaken his resolve (that's my story and I'm sticking to it!).

He started off the campaign quite suspicious of pagans and has found it difficult to warm up to them. He even made his first sworn knight convert to Catholicism in order to marry into the family (Pamigen is the 3rd son of Amig and has married Persidius's sister, Tatiana). Naturally other than that one convert, all of his knights are pagans.

I feel like he's at a saddle point here and that this moment of crisis will likely play out over a few years as he tries to find a way to avoid excommunication without disavowing Cornelia or further alienating her family. Eventually he will have to either find a permanent solution (like giving the Church a chunk of his (but not Adwen's of course) demesne) or lean into the skid and become a pagan himself. In this game there's precedence for that since Adwen's family is of Roman blood but thoroughly Cymric pagan and Persidius's own second cousin on their fathers' sides is a British Christian. If the Church writes him off he is much more likely to go pagan, but if they give him a sliver of hope he will hold on to it.

He once killed a man in a duel to first blood (ok, the guy died of infection but still) over calling Lady Elaine's mother a whore and implying she was one as well. He would be sad, but compelled, to do that same to any Bishop's champion who said the same about Cornelia.

tldr; he's in a ditch and he's going to keep digging.

Thanks for the family story! I will borrow portions of it. But... what about Sir Lucan? He's cited as a son of Corneus and was old enough to participate notably during the Battle of Bedegrine at least. I've always been confused why Derfel inherited instead of him, but assume the easiest fix would be to make Derfel an older son instead of a nephew.

There is a potentially an easy solution to this (apart from Derfel being Corneus' eldest son)... If we assume that there has been an OLDER brother to Corneus, who was the first Duke of Lindsey in late 460s, early 470s, then it can be that when he kicked the bucket in 470s, Corneus was the closest adult male and Aurelius tapped him for the dukedom. Derfel sees no need to rock the boat during Anarchy; he is his uncle's appointed heir and loves him like a father, and he is already acting as Corneus' right-hand man and deputy, learning on the job, so to speak. So when Corneus finally dies, Derfel picks up his rightful position as the head of the family, with his cousin Lucan, who has been raised to accept this, being fine with it. Makes for a rather nice contrast to some other fratricidal successions (Glevum, I am looking at you!).

EDIT: Just to add... you don't even have to make the eldest brother a duke. Dukedoms are not necessarily inheritable. If Derfel is the man for the job in Corneus' mind and Lucan accepts this (especially after the chaos following the defeat in 508), Derfel can become a duke by acclamation. With Lucan attaching himself to Arthur's court and Derfel supporting Arthur, both of them get what they want with Arthur appointing Lucan as his butler and confirming Derfel's dukehood.

There is a potentially an easy solution to this (apart from Derfel being Corneus' eldest son)... If we assume that there has been an OLDER brother to Corneus, who was the first Duke of Lindsey in late 460s, early 470s, then it can be that when he kicked the bucket in 470s, Corneus was the closest adult male and Aurelius tapped him for the dukedom. Derfel sees no need to rock the boat during Anarchy; he is his uncle's appointed heir and loves him like a father, and he is already acting as Corneus' right-hand man and deputy, learning on the job, so to speak. So when Corneus finally dies, Derfel picks up his rightful position as the head of the family, with his cousin Lucan, who has been raised to accept this, being fine with it. Makes for a rather nice contrast to some other fratricidal successions (Glevum, I am looking at you!).

EDIT: Just to add... you don't even have to make the eldest brother a duke. Dukedoms are not necessarily inheritable. If Derfel is the man for the job in Corneus' mind and Lucan accepts this (especially after the chaos following the defeat in 508), Derfel can become a duke by acclamation. With Lucan attaching himself to Arthur's court and Derfel supporting Arthur, both of them get what they want with Arthur appointing Lucan as his butler and confirming Derfel's dukehood.

Great idea, Morien. The contrast, particularly with how things go down in Glevum, is highly useful. My impression as well from reading the sources is that Lucan never was the kind of guy who liked settling down to land-management. He enjoyed being close to the king, fighting meaningful battles, perhaps adventuring, and definitely supporting his extended family and the like. I already pictured him reaching accommodation with Derfel to avoid internecine strife in the family--they couldn't afford it with Malahaut and Saxons (Angles) breathing down their necks!

So, napkin-history time:
Corneus' father was Count of Lindsey and a loyal subject of the Vortigern who surrendered at Caer Leon. He was ransomed by Ambrosius and enthusiastically swore homage to the new King of Logres as his rightful lord (under the High King or not), responding to the call for arms against Hengest despite being teeth-to-jowl with the Deira Angles (who did not join Hengest by the way).

Corneus' father was killed in the second battle of the day, outside of Caer Conan, before Eldol dragged Hengest off and the Saxons retreated under his sons. Later that year, however, Ambrosius made Corneus' older brother Duke to guard the northern terminus of Logres and watch out for Oisc and kin, then "exiled" into the North. Corneus himself continued treating with the Deira Angles and playing politics with Malahaunt in an effort to manage everyone, and when his brother is killed (in 473 or 477) Ambrosius names Corneus Duke over Uther's objections. Uther would have preferred Ulfius receive that honor.

So when Uther becomes king in 480 he's left with Corneus well-entrenched in Lindsey, suspicious of him as king, and inclined to scheme. Hilarity ensues--but only to a point as Corneus' line is quite inclined to support the rightful king if he's not already their enemy.

--Khanwulf

Derfel's a bit weird to reconcile. The semi-historical figure was a Breton saint, traditionally said to be a son of King Hywel (Geoffrey's Hoel) and traditionally held to be one the seven warriors who survived Camlann.

There is, of course, the fictionalized version that shows up in Cornwell's Warlord Chronicles, and I'm certain that Derfel of Lindsey was so named as a reference to this, but its fairly obvious that the two would have little in common in practice.

Part of the problem is that Derfel is barely mentioned outside of Lindsey's KAP4 entry. I say barely because the area from Upavon down to Amesbury is described as 10 manor inheritance held by "the Duke of Leicester", which KAP4 established earlier was an alternate title for the Duke of Lindsey. I've personally always interpreted this to mean that Derfel is Lady Jenna's canonical husband, but that 's just me.

In short, Derfel is very much a case where YPMV is almost required.

Derfel's a bit weird to reconcile. The semi-historical figure was a Breton saint, traditionally said to be a son of King Hywel (Geoffrey's Hoel) and traditionally held to be one the seven warriors who survived Camlann.

There is, of course, the fictionalized version that shows up in Cornwell's Warlord Chronicles, and I'm certain that Derfel of Lindsey was so named as a reference to this, but its fairly obvious that the two would have little in common in practice.

Part of the problem is that Derfel is barely mentioned outside of Lindsey's KAP4 entry. I say barely because the area from Upavon down to Amesbury is described as 10 manor inheritance held by "the Duke of Leicester", which KAP4 established earlier was an alternate title for the Duke of Lindsey. I've personally always interpreted this to mean that Derfel is Lady Jenna's canonical husband, but that 's just me.

In short, Derfel is very much a case where YPMV is almost required.

Yes. It would be entirely appropriate for a Lindsey-focused KAP run to ditch Derfel entirely (or move him into Malahaut) and let things swing somewhat.

Cornwall's Derfel also played the role of Bedivere. There was a lot of conflating characters that went on, there. If Duke Derfel is supposed to survive Camlann, then he probably does so in a wheelchair at his age.... Perhaps better to let someone unnamed be Duke after Corneus, though that still leaves Lucan as the second or third son.

--Khanwulf