This seems a recurring discussions so here we go again:

First, Reading KAP 5.2 I noticed a small addition that seems to dispel any confusion about Glory earned from Famous Traits. On page 256, it reads:

Famous Traits and Passions
During the Winter Phase, player-knights receive Glory equal to the value of any Traits or Passions with values of 16+.

This paragraph is not in the previous version so I assume that this, being the most current version, admits that a Chivalrous Knight will earn 100 Glory / year AND ALSO whatever Glory any Famous Traits he has (including those that contribute to being a Chivalrous Knight)?

Second, the rules mention that a knight receives Glory for land held, which usually is 10 Glory from his manor. But then, KAP 5.2, p. 256 states:

Manor, typical of a vassal knight = 10/year
Ten Manors, typical of a banneret knight = 30/year

How come ten manors equals 30? Shouldn't this be 100 / year? Am I missing something? By the way, KAP 5.1, p. 221:

A Manor, typical of a vassal knight = 6/year
Ten Manors, typical of a banneret knight = 30/year

I know £6 is the old economic model of £6 = Ordinary Knight, however, the numbers don't add up again: ten manors should be 60 Glory, not 30. Unless I'm missing something, again.

This seems a recurring discussions so here we go again:

First, Reading KAP 5.2 I noticed a small addition that seems to dispel any confusion about Glory earned from Famous Traits. On page 256, it reads:

Famous Traits and Passions
During the Winter Phase, player-knights receive Glory equal to the value of any Traits or Passions with values of 16+.

This paragraph is not in the previous version so I assume that this, being the most current version, admits that a Chivalrous Knight will earn 100 Glory / year AND ALSO whatever Glory any Famous Traits he has (including those that contribute to being a Chivalrous Knight)?


See below.



Second, the rules mention that a knight receives Glory for land held, which usually is 10 Glory from his manor. But then, KAP 5.2, p. 256 states:

Manor, typical of a vassal knight = 10/year
Ten Manors, typical of a banneret knight = 30/year

I know £6 is the old economic model of £6 = Ordinary Knight, however, the numbers don't add up again: ten manors should be 60 Glory, not 30. Unless I'm missing something, again.


This is a legacy error, dating back to at least 4th edition, p. 121. Back in the day, the 'banneret' was more akin to what Book of the Estate calls an estate holder. 5 manors at £6 each = 30. It seems that whoever corrected the number of manors for the banneret in 5.2 forgot to correct the Glory amount, which should have been 100. The rule (as it stands at the moment) is 1 Glory for £1 of landholding, capped at 100.

Note that there are many other discrepancies, since unfortunately, 5.2 did not do a full update to the most recent rules (Book of... -series). So for example, the Title Glory in p. 125 conflicts with Book of the Estate's rules, and since 5.2 clearly just copied 5.1 p. 104, in my mind, BotE takes precedence. There is also the fact that the tournaments imply to give Glory separate from the Conspicuous Consumption, even though their expenses should all be calculated together and then converted to Glory. Otherwise, you could host, say, ten Local Tournaments and get 500 Glory at the fraction of the cost of getting 500 Glory from Conspicuous Consumption (£4100).

Now, to take this back to the Traits and Passions... The Glory Appendix is pretty much copied from the 4th edition Glory Rewards. Hence, there is enough wiggle room there to disregard that. On the other hand, you make a valid point that it was missing in KAP 5.1 (despite KAP 5.1 having it mentioned in text in several places). So I think we can take this to be an executive decision on Greg's part to reintroduce it.

Personally, I don't mind it so much, as long as double dipping would have been removed, too: no need for extra 100 on top of the 96 Glory from Traits. High Passive Annual Glory is the BANE of campaigns, in my humble opinion, as it tends to swamp the Adventuring Glory. Hence, the knights become glorious not for what they do, but from minmaxing their Traits and sitting on their asses at home, accumulating Glory without the danger of getting killed on adventures. Which I find very irritating.

This may be a good place to ask this related question:

Does "trait" for glory purposes include attributes (SIZ, APP, etc.) as well as Passions? Normally I see the paired Traits and Passions mentioned--perhaps because there are so many more of them than attributes, but it would be useful to know for sure if PKs get glory for being physically notable as well.

Logically, yes, even more so than their paired traits, but yaknow....

Morien, in your preferred campaign arc, what would you consider the normal, intended time per 1000 glory? TT1K if you will, as a benchmark for progress through the GPC?

--Khanwulf

Does "trait" for glory purposes include attributes (SIZ, APP, etc.) as well as Passions? Normally I see the paired Traits and Passions mentioned--perhaps because there are so many more of them than attributes, but it would be useful to know for sure if PKs get glory for being physically notable as well.

No, Traits refers only to the dual opposed personality traits. I never understood Traits as including Attributes which the rules make quite clear are a separate thing than Traits.

Does "trait" for glory purposes include attributes (SIZ, APP, etc.) as well as Passions?


No. Size does not a knight make. :P



Morien, in your preferred campaign arc, what would you consider the normal, intended time per 1000 glory? TT1K if you will, as a benchmark for progress through the GPC?


I guess I am more in the low-glory side of things compared to some... The amount of Glory fluctuates depending on what actually happens during the year, obviously, but something like 250 Glory per year, absent great heroics and big battles, seems like a good pace to me. Which obviously means that if a knight is getting about 200 Glory from Chivalric + everything else, this is a bit too much for me. In a previous campaign, one PK was getting 400+ passive annual Glory (he was Chivalric and Christian with numerous high Loyalty passions).

At 250 Glory per year, it takes about 16 years to gain 4000 Glory. Given that the PKs start with 1000+ Glory, this would bring them to 5000+ Glory in their late 30s. However, during this time, it is very probable that they have married, participated in numerous battles, and probably had a major quest or two, so usually, they are starting to get close to the 8000 mark by this time. I guess that is a better yardstick to use as to what kind of campaigns I like to run: 20 years down the line (in their early 40s), if the PKs have done good, they might get into the Round Table or are amongst the most famous knights of Britain. So in a way, they get to 'win' the game, before Aging takes a big bite out of their stats, and maybe even play the character a bit longer. Usually dying heroically against some great beast (since you would send one or more RTKs against a dragon, wouldn't you, not some minor knights), with their eldest son old enough to enter play. So averaged over a longer period, including big battles, it is more like 400 Glory per year.

No, Traits refers only to the dual opposed personality traits. I never understood Traits as including Attributes which the rules make quite clear are a separate thing than Traits.

Ok, great. There was a line (or disagreement between lines) in BoK&L (p.58) that led me to wonder if "Trait" also meant attribute. No worries.

--Khanwulf

No. Size does not a knight make. :P



I guess I am more in the low-glory side of things compared to some... The amount of Glory fluctuates depending on what actually happens during the year, obviously, but something like 250 Glory per year, absent great heroics and big battles, seems like a good pace to me. Which obviously means that if a knight is getting about 200 Glory from Chivalric + everything else, this is a bit too much for me. In a previous campaign, one PK was getting 400+ passive annual Glory (he was Chivalric and Christian with numerous high Loyalty passions).

At 250 Glory per year, it takes about 16 years to gain 4000 Glory. Given that the PKs start with 1000+ Glory, this would bring them to 5000+ Glory in their late 30s. However, during this time, it is very probable that they have married, participated in numerous battles, and probably had a major quest or two, so usually, they are starting to get close to the 8000 mark by this time. I guess that is a better yardstick to use as to what kind of campaigns I like to run: 20 years down the line (in their early 40s), if the PKs have done good, they might get into the Round Table or are amongst the most famous knights of Britain. So in a way, they get to 'win' the game, before Aging takes a big bite out of their stats, and maybe even play the character a bit longer. Usually dying heroically against some great beast (since you would send one or more RTKs against a dragon, wouldn't you, not some minor knights), with their eldest son old enough to enter play. So averaged over a longer period, including big battles, it is more like 400 Glory per year.

I think if you're just minding store getting 250 Glory would be considered awesome work. For my own purposes I'm tempted to ignore the bonus Glory for Chivalric, etc. Assuming that the other benefits (bonus HP, armor) are more than sufficient and there will be Glory coming in from high Traits.

Thanks for the benchmark!

--Khanwulf

I think if you're just minding store getting 250 Glory would be considered awesome work. For my own purposes I'm tempted to ignore the bonus Glory for Chivalric, etc. Assuming that the other benefits (bonus HP, armor) are more than sufficient and there will be Glory coming in from high Traits.

Thanks for the benchmark!

--Khanwulf

The 250 is stuff like visiting court, foiling a Saxon raid (and killing a couple of Saxons while so doing), fighting a duel to first blood, etc. Not just sitting at home. :)

Yeah, my stopgap solution is the same: no Glory for Chivalric or Christian.