I've read this book a few times, and I'm not sure if I'm over thinking things or not - but here goes.

If a PK starts with a single manor (as most do), the example on pg 38 basically shows how all the money shakes out (assuming lady wife or a steward in her place). You are left with 1 libre at the end of the year discretionary.

If you later gain a second manor (another 10£ manor, say through marriage) are all the calculations still done based on percentages? Do your family and court expenses go up (basically double) or is that "money" (I know its not money, but just easier to type) now available as discretionary funds? I had initially thought you'd have to pay out for another knight to run the army, but that does fall under the army expense (there is en expense for the Lord Knight + squire - which was the PK for 1 manor, but now would be the second knight for the next manor, yes?) I didn't think you'd have to pay court expenses a second time, but did think you'd need to continue to pay the extra army expenses for the second manor (as it needs to be defended) - which would mean there would be an extra 4.5£ on top of the 1£ discretionary from the second manor

OR

Is it basically always a percentage as outlined for simplicity's sake, and your total discretionary tops out at 2£.

Given the way things are written quite specifically as percentages and that you aren't supposed to get "rich" off of this, I suspected the second was the more reasonable. Basically, you'd need 5 manors to get to a rich standard of living (if my math is right?)

Thanks!

If you later gain a second manor (another 10£ manor, say through marriage) are all the calculations still done based on percentages?

Yes.


Do your family and court expenses go up (basically double)

Yes.



or is that "money" (I know its not money, but just easier to type) now available as discretionary funds?

No.



Is it basically always a percentage as outlined for simplicity's sake, and your total discretionary tops out at 2£.


Yes.

Here is the thing, you always need the Army and the Court and the Family. It is about living the lifestyle you are expected to have. Now, the GM can always give exemptions from this in their own campaigns, but it would lead to a huge increase of DF for the second manor, and I would not recommend it.

The extra court expense is also paying for extra noble personnel, like a steward (esquire) to oversee your other manor (likely in another county or at least not right next to your current one) and/or other courtiers.

For instance, a £50 estate has 8 additional people supported from the Court expense (see BotE p. 39).




Given the way things are written quite specifically as percentages and that you aren't supposed to get "rich" off of this, I suspected the second was the more reasonable. Basically, you'd need 5 manors to get to a rich standard of living (if my math is right?)


Not quite. You can make it with 2 manors, assuming you are using your discretionary funds to boost your Standard of Living.

Base SoL: £5 + £2 family expense (£1 each manor) + £2 (DF for 2 manors) = £9 = Rich.

Although now I see that for some reason, KAP 5.2 changed the Rich to require at least £11. Which would require a third manor.

If you wish to get to Rich on Family expense alone, you'd need 4 manors (£9, KAP 5.1) or 6 manors (£11, KAP 5.2).

Awesome! Thanks!

If I could ask a followup - I saw that it says only 1 improvement per 10 libra. Is that per year or just total? You can have more than 1 fishing weir; are those 1 improvement each or do they count as 1 together?

Ask away, ask away. :)

Quick answer: it is intended to limit both the TOTAL (if large footprint like herds) and Yearly improvements (how much you can build in a year). Not all improvements require that much land though. I would have to dig up the book and check what we said about the weir... my vague recollection is that it was limited by the waterway, not the manor size, but I could be wrong. I'll check later today.

EDIT: OK, yeah, I checked what we wrote and that kicked the memory loose in my mind. So there are three things going on here:

1) How fast can you build: 1 investment per £10 per year. 2nd one if you pay +50% extra.

2) How much can you build:

2a) Only ONE any investment that requires space per £10 landholding (Limitations, p. 76). Once that is built, that's it. You will have to sell your sheep herd if you wish to have a horse herd in its stead. Or uproot an Orchard, destroying it, etc. However, note that the investments that are part of the estate at its generation don't count against this. So for instance, the mention that Salisbury manors typically have £5 income from sheep herds (= 5 herds per £10 manor) does not mean that they are 4 herds over the limit. No, it simply means that those manors include large areas of chalky hills which are suitable for sheep farming, but unsuitable for farming. You still get that one slot per £10 to build something on, but this one won't regenerate unlike below.

2b) Only ONE NEW investment of EACH other investment per £10 land (Assized rent).

2b) is the complicated one. Basically, the thinking there was that we wanted to discourage someone from simply spamming, say, 10 armouries on a single £10 manor estate. In short, there won't be a market for all those weapons. Or you can't build more than 1 salthouse. However, there is a small loophole, which is that once you move the OLD investment into the Customary Revenue of the estate, then you can go ahead and build NEW investments again. This is to make it so that you can slowly continue investing on the family estate, rather than being hampered by the fact that the granddad already built that one salthouse, or that you rolled a salthouse from the random estate generator. The handwavy excuse here can be that you have already established markets for the old salt production farther away, but it is motivated by game considerations. Ignore if you wish.

Now, weirs I would argue are a special case. It is pretty clear from the description that you are actually not requiring that much of a coastline, but it matters how much of the river you block. Hence, I would ignore the '1 per £10 rule' (except for the seacoast), and simply follow the limitations based on the river size. And once they are built, they are built. So they would be more similar to the space-limited investments.

Did I manage to explain my thinking clearly enough?

That's great! I had sort of assumed that you could only build an investment that requires space by sacrificing a lot - which came at the expense of £2 of your normal income! Your explanation makes more sense.

You did mention that you come move your old investment to Customary Revenue - is that something that just happens organically? Once its been established for "a while" you can then progress and doe something else?

You did mention that you come move your old investment to Customary Revenue - is that something that just happens organically?


It happens when the estate/manor is reassessed at the death of the previous holder, before it is granted to the heir. Note that this process typically takes a year, during which time the liege gains the income from the estate (although presumably, he would keep the household knights of a bigger estate on, etc.).

Example: £10 manor is granted to the knight, who then builds an investment bringing extra £1 per year.

Since the army requirement is based on the charter that the knight gets when the land is granted to him, the new investments are not part of the charter, and hence the knight can do whatever he wants with that income. Hence, free income, for a total discretionary funds of £1+£1 = £2.

However, once the knight dies, the manor is reassessed and found to have an income of £11 per year (£10 + £1 investment). Now the heir's Servitum Debitum is 1 knight (himself) and 4 footsoldiers (3 original + 1 extra for the extra £1). His discretionary funds would be only £1.1, not £2. So it is not that good of a deal for the Player to push the investment into the Customary Revenue quicker.




Once its been established for "a while" you can then progress and doe something else?

You can always build other investments, too. Also, see above.