First of all, I'm new in this forum so: hello to everybody! :)

As the title of this topic says, I have been using the BotM (because I didn't know that BotE even exists). We've been playing KAP for weeks now, and we're at the end of King Uther's Period and entering the Anarchy.

Some of my players (specially one of them) liked BotM and built some improvements, etc. but most of them find them tedious and as they don't want to mess up they don't build almost anything.

The point is that I also think that Manor System is too messy, and since I've read Estates System, I'd like to change from manor system to the latter.

The problem is, the player who built improvements and fortification feels unfair that, for example he spent 15£ to have his palisade and now it costs like... only 5£ I think. He suggests reassigning the money he spent and returning him back the extra. But I don't really want giving him such an amount of money because it could disbalance everything.

What do you suggest?


I have two more questions. Since in BotE there is no harvest, how do the "+3 to Bad Weather due to Uther's illness" apply to this system?

And... if a family member of a PK is kidnapped and he has to pay, let's say 12 libram since he is a household knight, how does the player pay if he has only a DF of 1£ (with a 10£ manor)


BTW, I'm sorry if my english is not correct sometimes, I'm from Spain and I'm trying my best!

Thanks in advance!!

Hola! Don't worry about it. Plenty of us non-native speakers around! :)

On a plane and typing this on the phone so trying to keep this brief...

1. Fortifications:
a) Keep the price the same as in BotM. Not my choice though.
b) Allow him to have fortifications equal to what he paid. This way he gets his money's worth but it is tied up.
c) Since presumably you are transitioning investments over as well, note that they conversily tended to be cheaper than they are now. So if you want to be really scrupulous, those prices might need looking into, too. Although to be frank, I probably wouldn't bother.

I'd go with 1b.

2) Harvest mods
a) Simple option: for each +3 or so, reduce income by £1. This gives the mods some bite.
b) More complicated: I am using modified harvest rules with BotE. Search house rules section.

3) Ransom (quick thoughts)
Note that previously that £6 manor provided NO excess income. Everything went to the upkeep of the knight and his family.
If the family member is a household knight, who is the liege? The liege ought to be paying the ransom or at least the majority of it.
Ransom amounts in KAP are too high IMHO.
Where will PK get the money if he needs to? Squeezing the peasants, dropping himself to Poor (I'd allow that for a good cause, nor am I imposing murderous modifiers for it). This can easily raise another 3-5 libra so the ransom would be paid in 3 years.
Don't pay but go and rescue the captive. Time to get family and friends together!
Ask help from your/his liege, men or money.
Spend some of that loot money you have put aside for a rainy day.

Thank you very much for your quick answer!!

When you say that I reduce income by £1 for every +3 or so, you mean to eliminate de DF or just reduce the total income and then do the percentages from then new (let's say, £9 manor???).

I think I'll use the Lots system, although I don't really understand it properly yet...

3) Ransom (quick thoughts)
Note that previously that £6 manor provided NO excess income. Everything went to the upkeep of the knight and his family.


The thing is that they used the excess of income from the good havest years (now I understand they shouldn't be able to save the money :( ).


I have seen your modified harvest results and I like, but I have some questions:

1) Do you use random harvest rolls for the Bad Weather as in GPC or do use a more complex system as in BotM?
2) When harvest drops to Very Bad (for example), you say "-30% of CR, no Discretionary Funds and -£2 to Treasury"... what if they have no Treasury????

When you say that I reduce income by £1 for every +3 or so, you mean to eliminate de DF or just reduce the total income and then do the percentages from then new (let's say, £9 manor???).

I don't actually use Lots themselves, but I use standard £10 manors, so -10% = 1 Lot = -£1. Since DF is +£1, they cancel out. Or the PKs can pay that from their Treasury (they usually have some, and I generally allow them to hoard income at 1:1, since this allows them to gather money to knight second sons, pay dowries for second daughters, etc., all good things for encouraging dynastic play).

The thing is that they used the excess of income from the good havest years (now I understand they shouldn't be able to save the money :( ).


Well... In BotE, you don't even have good harvests, so it doesn't come up. But I think there is a conversion from kind to treasury, at 50% drop for hoarding. I ignore that as mentioned in my previous post.



I have seen your modified harvest results and I like, but I have some questions:

1) Do you use random harvest rolls for the Bad Weather as in GPC or do use a more complex system as in BotM?
2) When harvest drops to Very Bad (for example), you say "-30% of CR, no Discretionary Funds and -£2 to Treasury"... what if they have no Treasury????

1) I use the BotM method of rolling 3d6+5 for the Weather's 'Skill' per county/region (for instance, I would probably just use the same roll for Salisbury and Gentian, but toll separately for Cornwall and Salisbury), and then just roll that once for the whole county/region. That is the base Weather/Misfortune roll for everyone, against which they then roll their (wives'/stewards') modified Stewardship.

2) Like said in my previous post, I used a standard £10 manors, so -10% = -£2, for which the thing is based on. If they don't have money/funds in Treasury, they have to come up some somehow (raiding, war loot, squeezing) or lower their expenses, which generally means living as Poor. Since I am in the camp that says that it is silly for Poor to be almost a death sentence for the kids when whole peasant families survive with £1 annual income, this is not a huge problem. There are some social penalties for showing up at court in threadbare clothing, but it is very much survivable.

Ok, I understand, I like the hybrid you use between the BotE and BotM so I think I'll use it. I don't want to be annoying but I have two more quick questions............

Do you use the investments and prices from BotM or BotE? And what about squeezes system, BotM or BotE?

Ok, I understand, I like the hybrid you use between the BotE and BotM so I think I'll use it. I don't want to be annoying but I have two more quick questions............


Questions and conversations is what this Forum is all about! Ask all you want. :)



Do you use the investments and prices from BotM or BotE? And what about squeezes system, BotM or BotE?

Well, I revised the BotM prices at the time, so it is a bit of a homebrew concoction at this point... But the prices and incomes are closer to BotE.

Squeezes... We used BotM, but I think it is probably a bit too generous (up to £3d6 with sure 7 Hate and bad trait checks, but no real major issues), while revised BotE probably ended up a bit too harsh (even little squeezes can bite your buttocks with Permanent Loss, negating the transitory benefit of a squeeze). I'd probably use the Squeezes from BotE now, but push the lot damage down a step*. Which would mean that you can do 10% Squeezes without damage save to your traits, giving a chance for a greedy knight to actually be greedy. I like to make it a "devil's bargain": if you betray your principles, then you will profit... at least over the short term.

* I might impose the full penalty under Arthur post-518: no threat from the Saxons and a king who is an exemplar in Just. So the peasants would be more likely to vote with their feet. Definitely after the Yellow Pestilence, the peasants would be very keen on moving from under a tyrannical lord and seek lands elsewhere, since there would be a lot of empty fields and a shortage of labor. But that is something for the future.

Squeezes... We used BotM, but I think it is probably a bit too generous (up to £3d6 with sure 7 Hate and bad trait checks, but no real major issues), while revised BotE probably ended up a bit too harsh (even little squeezes can bite your buttocks with Permanent Loss, negating the transitory benefit of a squeeze). I'd probably use the Squeezes from BotE now, but push the lot damage down a step*. Which would mean that you can do 10% Squeezes without damage save to your traits, giving a chance for a greedy knight to actually be greedy. I like to make it a "devil's bargain": if you betray your principles, then you will profit... at least over the short term.

And if I don't use the lots, like you... that means turning the lots damage into libram, right? But that means that 10% squeezes won't do any damage! I think I would add some Hate too...

Speaking of Hate... as you don't use the property destruction table of the BotM, how is the Hate increased in your system?

If a knight have more than one manor in the same county, you calculate all harvest of damage taking it as if it was an estate with the value of the manors? or you do the harvest and damage for each manor? I mean for example, for 10% squeeze, if I have 3 manors it'll be £3, right?

Thanks for your kind responses!!

And if I don't use the lots, like you... that means turning the lots damage into libram, right? But that means that 10% squeezes won't do any damage! I think I would add some Hate too...

Yes and yes. Maybe 1 Hate per 10%?



Speaking of Hate... as you don't use the property destruction table of the BotM, how is the Hate increased in your system?

Who says we don't use the property destruction table? We do use it, actually. :) Also, like said, previously we have been using the BotM Squeeze system, so that is another source, and finally, we use the Expanded Manorial Luck tables that someone (sorry, I forget who) posted here.



If a knight have more than one manor in the same county, you calculate all harvest of damage taking it as if it was an estate with the value of the manors? or you do the harvest and damage for each manor? I mean for example, for 10% squeeze, if I have 3 manors it'll be £3, right?

Depends. For simplicity, you can go ahead and bundle them, just like you calculated, yes.

However, since we have a bit more stringent rules for stewards, we have only bundled manors that are (literally in most case) right next to one another. If they are sprinkled around the county, we have used them separately. This is even more so because the original manors were in Northeastern Salisbury, right at the border of Levcomagus, so raiding happened often. It wouldn't work quite easily that the Levcomagus would raid just one manor and all three manors would take damage. Also, the fortifications protect only those manors where they have been built, too.



Thanks for your kind responses!!

No worries, happy to help and talk about my favorite game. :)

However, since we have a bit more stringent rules for stewards, we have only bundled manors that are (literally in most case) right next to one another. If they are sprinkled around the county, we have used them separately. This is even more so because the original manors were in Northeastern Salisbury, right at the border of Levcomagus, so raiding happened often. It wouldn't work quite easily that the Levcomagus would raid just one manor and all three manors would take damage. Also, the fortifications protect only those manors where they have been built, too.


So... if manors are separated enough... you do different "step 4 of the winter fase" for each manor? If afirmative, isn't it too messy?

On the other side, as the PKs can only build fortifications on their original manor (the main one), isn't it unfair that any attack goes against any of their other manors? Wouldn't it be better (and simpler) to make the attack only in the main manor? Or maybe bundling all the manors of a PK to receive the attack? I know is not reallistic, but neither is building only in one manor (I suppose)!

We do them separately, yes. It does take a bit more time but since we do all that manorial stuff via email, it doesn't take game time. It is just extra manorial luck, Just and Stewardship rolls per extra manor. Most PKs had just one extra manor anyway.

We do allow building on individual manors. But yes, if you go by BotE and want to make things simpler then you could bundle the manors into a single estate.