(This is what I ponder with idle mental cycles....)

So, we know that the downfall of the Pendragon line is pride. And (without digressing) that that pride manifested in Arthur in a certain way, and in Uther in another.

But what about Ambrosius, the "mild king" modest in his ways and bemoaned in his passing by Gildas? He was the first "Pen Dragon"--perhaps leader of a band of Sarmatian cavalry from Armorica with their dragon-headed windsock-banner.

What was his failing? Was he prideful, but importantly ultimately unsuited to create the legendary Britain that Merlin hoped for? Or was he really a good man who just suffered the fate of many throughout history: mowed down before he could accomplish everything he wanted? Was he "too good" for a mythic cycle of the seasons expressed through the kingship?

Lots of bundles. Let me propose something:

Ambrosius was as prideful as his brother and nephew. His failure was in the fundamental first duty of a dynastic ruler: ensuring the propagation of his family. He never married that we know, and so legally passed the crown to his politically and morally less-suited but martially competent brother, Uther, on death. That succession fractured the (high) kingdom and consigned it to nearly 40 years of war before Arthur finally united Britain again.

A high, high price to pay for not being willing to settle down. But why?

Church-types Gildas and Nennius would not single him out for praise were he a known effeminate uninterested in women. Nor was he known as "Ambrosius the Chaste". He probably had bastards, but knew to keep them quiet and cared-for. Madoc's secret upbringing may be an example of his advice followed by a younger, restrained Uther. But... Ambrosius never married. Why?

Perhaps he was waiting for the right one to come along? The perfect match of attraction, competency and political connection--a rare gem indeed. Perhaps he thought he had all the time he needed. After all, he was relatively young for a middle-aged sovereign, in his prime, and even if he didn't win battles all the time he knew how to manage people well. And he'd clawed his way up from zero with nothing but ability and his family name (both, admittedly, valuable tools)!

Why settle down, then? When you feel like you have time?

Perhaps in this way he was the brother to Uther: one treating life with excess, and the other as if there were an excess of life.

Thoughts?

--Khanwulf

That Aurelius and Uther never married (until Ygraine, in Uther's case) is baffling. By contrast, almost the first thing Arthur did after securing his crown was to marry (and he might have gotten betrothed with Guenever already in 510). It is just their personal tragedy that they never had any children together.

Aurelius was the High King for almost a decade. I could see why he wouldn't marry beforehand, maybe his options were limited. But after 468? He should have had his pick of all the women.

One sinister option is that given Uther's 'might makes right' -mentality, Aurelius worried that if he marries and has children, he would either have to put Uther in jail or even have him killed, in order to ensure that nothing would happen to his children if he were to die prematurely. Or even later, if he dies before Uther. By remaining unmarried and confirming Uther as his heir, Aurelius ensured that his militarily-gifted, aggressive brother was still pulling together rather than pulling apart.

It is of course easy enough to come up with contributing reasons why Aurelius would stay unwed, such as maybe he had been in love as a younger man in Brittany, but lost her tragically, and never wanted to expose himself to such a hurt again.

None of the above explains why UTHER never married (until Ygraine), though. I mean, here we clearly have a prince/king who wouldn't give a rat's ass what the wife would think about his philandering, so that wouldn't be an issue. He is also more than capable of saying "that woman will be mine" and then ensuring that happens, even if he has to fight his own nobles to do it.

Perhaps the simplest option would be to add wives & children, and simply ensure that they are no longer alive in 480. That happens. And the reason they are not mentioned is simply because they were not important to the story. I could even see Aurelius forcing Uther to marry some noble lady for political purposes, even though she might be trollish in countenance, and Uther deciding that he might marry her but he'd rather be damned than to bed her.

Yeah writing in more characters is certainly feasible. I'm of course very curious to see what the Book of Sires does with it, if anything.

Your point on the political potential of heir-apparent keeping Uther in line is valid, and has story potential. Uther seems like the kind of younger brother that even though he looked up to Ambrosius, was enough of his own head and full of ambition--enough to ensure trouble if he cared to.

--Khanwulf

Another thought on Uther's unmarried state... Ḿaybe Uther simply doesn't care if his successor is legitimate or illegitimate. We have already seen in BoU in what low esteem he holds the Church. So rather than marrying, he has affairs, and from all of his bastards, Madog is the best and the apple in Uther's eye. Uther acknowledges Madog in 480 (with Aurelius' support, no less) and starts grooming him as a successor, so there is no need for him to marry. Especially since marrying in the 480s would mean that by necessity, Uther would need to survive another 30 years or so to ensure a legitimate male heir being an adult when he passes on. Whereas with Madog, by the end of 480s, he is very securely established as the Crown Prince, with successful military campaigns under his belt, and respect of the nobility who no longer care about his bastard status (at least not when Uther is around).

I think much of the root of this is that in Geoffrey of Monmouth, Ambrosius' reign is soon over. Once he's defeated Vortigern and Hengist, he turns his attention to raising a memorial for the British nobles murdered by Hengist's treachery, leading to Merlin transporting Stonehenge from Ireland to Salisbury Plain. Almost immediately afterwards, Pascent and Gilloman invade Britain, Uther goes off to fight them, and Ambrosius (already ill, which is why he entrusts the army to Uther) is poisoned. There's not enough time for him to take a wife. Everything happens too quickly.

The "Pendragon" campaign stretched out Ambrosius' reign longer than Geoffrey's account implies, and thus raises the issue of his never having a queen. One solution would be to have Ambrosius' reign only last a couple of years. (I can imagine reasons for the longer reign; for one thing, putting more years between Merlin's meeting with Vortigern and the conception of Arthur allows time for Merlin to grow up into the familiar old white-bearded wizard.)

True. Pretty much the whole 470s in Pendragon is filler. Not only that, but the same is true for Uther's reign, too. As soon as Aurelius dies, Octa and Eosa rebel and attack Eburacum. Mt Damen follows, and in the following Easter, Uther sees Ygraine. Gorlois' rebellion, Arthur's siring and the subsequent Uther marrying Ygraine follows. So Uther actually marries Ygraine within about a year from being crowned.

True. Pretty much the whole 470s in Pendragon is filler. Not only that, but the same is true for Uther's reign, too. As soon as Aurelius dies, Octa and Eosa rebel and attack Eburacum. Mt Damen follows, and in the following Easter, Uther sees Ygraine. Gorlois' rebellion, Arthur's siring and the subsequent Uther marrying Ygraine follows. So Uther actually marries Ygraine within about a year from being crowned.

Ok, filler perhaps, since KAP paces out life in the setting a bit more than the historical record implies. (You have people and their armies rocking back and forth in the same year across the Western Roman Empire for instance... really I wonder who harvests crops sometimes!) Still, it makes it easier to play in the setting and arranges the timeline more in line with the various sources. I suspect Geoffrey wasn't concerned with a detailed yearly record as some chroniclers of the Roman Empire were, and dropped out year markers in general (I need to research to re-confirm this, but is my impression.

Back to marriages and such: point well taken that in the day it was better to have living, strong sons than to wait around for a "legitimate" heir unless you really, really wanted to unify families and land. When Uther presented Madoc Ambrosius was already sick and demonstrating a clear succession path for the nobility would have held considerable value, especially since by then the Saxons had more recovered from Hengest's demise and associated thrashing.

Notes [from memory, so less specific], both from what the KAP synthesized chronology implies, and my own uses:

1. Ambrosius takes the kingship of Logres in 467 when he arrives and Vortigern can't get his Saxon allies to show up to fight him off. He tries to buy Ambrosius off with Logres but fails (cannot tolerate the man who murdered his father, plus those 10k foot and 2k dragon-bannered Sarmatian horse need to be paid).

2. Late 468 Vortigern burns in his castle after being penned there for a year. Ambrosius has already shown his face throughout Logres and secured the personal oaths of his vassals. Between that and the threat of the Saxons the council unanimously confirms him as High King. He makes Uther crown prince and heir, and generously confirms Vortigern's surviving son Pascent to the family lands in [Wales].

3. Ygraine, daughter of Amlawdd Wledig, one of Vortigern’s men… kinglet of Galvoi, is introduced to both Gorlois and Ambrosius during the latter's great circuit of Logres. They are rivals for her hand, which is an unmatched contest even though Gorlois is cousin to King Glywys of Glamorgan. Uther doesn't meet Ygraine because he's running the siege of Caer Vortigern and fending off relief raids. Ultimately Ygraine chooses Gorlois because she'll have all of him versus being the greatest flower in the High King's garden of attentions. Ambrosius already promised her Tintagel, and follows through on that, and also swears not to marry unless he can find another gem like her. Uther is incensed by all of this (still hasn't met Ygraine), seeing one prerogative of a great man being to possess a fine woman, and Gorlois as disloyal for opposing his brother.

4. Madoc is the fruit of a relationship between a noble Roman girl and a young Uther. The girl was sent to a nunnery by her father, who drove away an Uther who loved her--as he was then a landless (albeit noble) warrior among the Alans. Years later, Madoc went to Britain as page/squire to a knight among the heavy cavalry, and stayed as his knight was granted land. Uther was genuinely surprised to see the ring and son of his young beloved; other bastards could never hope to hold a candle to that weight and he didn't bother legitimizing them. After the death of Madoc and his marriage Uther degenerated further and paid even less attention to the long-term care of the kingdom.

5. Aurelius never had the chance to marry as he hoped to, and though we can assume some bastards they didn't have the support for the throne that Uther did, weren't legitimized, and served as a forgettable sub-point to the complaints the nobles had with Uther's bid for high-kingship. Convenient excuses for a few electors (and even, say, Lindsey) to argue the matter of Logres wasn't even settled.

6. Uther didn't marry because he didn't want to and, as suggested, didn't feel he had to (church and bastards). He might have if a key elector had a sufficiently interesting daughter, but he wasn't about to chain himself down and/or alienate a family as he continued to flagrantly philander. Ygraine retreated into a nunnery not long after Arthur was fostered to Merlin, so we can see that she gave up on steering Uther.

As a counterpoint to this, note that William the Bastard did fine enough--after a few vassal teething pains we can assume came as much from assumed his title at a very young age. Uther takes great pains to demonstrate Madoc's competency as a military leader and otherwise grooms him for the throne. He didn't need to complicate that situation--until Ygraine of course. We can only imagine Madoc's thoughts on that pursuit.

--Khanwulf

It might be that Aurelius either didn't marry, because he didn't have much land yet,just what his uncle (King Budic of Britanny, who had enough clout to protect Aurelius and Uther from Vortigern) gave him in Brittany, or whatever he might have conquered in continental campaigns before his return to Britain
It's also possible that he did marry, but just didn't have any children, or at least none that survived to majority.


There is also some stuff that suggest that he was Merlin's father. Merlin's name or Emrys translates to Ambrosius in Latin. I think Mary Stewart followed this line in her novels.

It's also possible that he did marry, but just didn't have any children, or at least none that survived to majority.


Yep. Not important to the story, hence unmentioned.



There is also some stuff that suggest that he was Merlin's father. Merlin's name or Emrys translates to Ambrosius in Latin. I think Mary Stewart followed this line in her novels.

I don't think the KAP timeline easily accommodates that... AA would have still been in Brittany when Merlin was conceived. Not to mention the whole incubus impregnating Merlin's mother in a nunnery...

Yep. Not important to the story, hence unmentioned.

Much like Prince Madoc. A GM could even give Aurelius a son or two that get killed off


I don't think the KAP timeline easily accommodates that...
Merlin's parentage? Maybe, see below. As far as expanding the timeline, well, I hope you're wrong, I've did just that back in the KAP3-4 days, and have started work on updating and expanding it to KAP5/GPC. The timeline from Salisbury Family History in KAP5 is a good, solid start (it's at least as detailed and the original Pendragon Campaign for KAP1). From there I just went to the same sources Greg used for that timeline (mostly Geoffry of Mommoth and Nenius) for additional details.

The King Aurelius Period (466-480) was easy to flesh out.

It's preceded by the The Vortigern Period (443-466), , Constatin Period (429-440, but probably includes the brief reign of Constans to 443) and as yet unnamed period (410-228) when the Romans abandon Britain to "look for itself".

As far as the Storyline goes, I can think of two storyline to work from.
The first is the standard Salisbury campaign with the players playing Knights and Tribal Warriors from Salisbury. They could start off in a kingless land after the Romans pull out, say around 425, and accompany the Archbishop of London to Brittany to petition King Aldrien to take up the Birtith throne. He declines, but suggest his brother Constantin, who accepts and rules for a decade before being Murdered. A few year later, when his eldest son Constans, is murdered, the PKs might be called by the Archbishop (who was in charge of raising Aurelius and Uther) to help smuggle them to their uncle's (King Budic) court in Britanny. Or they could remain (or return to home after th mission), and deal with life under Vortigerns rule, the arrival of Hengest and Horsa and their Saxon (Jute) armies.

Then a possibly second storyline emerges, where PKs who stay in Britanny watch over, and eventually serve under Aurelius in campaign on the Continent in a partially Romanized army. This would be the Riothamus campaign, and would help to establish Aurleius' reputation before he returns to Britian.

I've got some info on events and battles for those Periods (Votimer's rebellion, Battles of Maisbeili and Kaerconan ) as well as a few adventures ideas (Bringing Aurlius and Uther to Brittany, Birth of Merlin, Vortigern's Tower, The Giants Dance)


I had some ideas for fleshing out the character generation and storyline too. I'd like to start with the characters being more Dark Age Tribal Cymric or Roman in the beginning ( I have some chargen stuff for Legionary characters, both Knightly and Common), and evolve into full fledged Knights by the Aurelius Period.



AA would have still been in Brittany when Merlin was conceived.

Maybe. It's possibly that he might have snuck over on a scouting mission incognito c.451, it would be a perfect time for it, with Vorigern marrying Rowena. Votimer's Rebellion c. 457 might even be better, but it means a younger Merlin. Or, as some version of Merlin go, his mother was a princess from Dyfed (Estregales) then she could have been visiting King Budic's court when Merlin was conceived. This would be something that would have to be covered up for obvious reasons. I wouldn't want to go that route though.




Not to mention the whole incubus impregnating Merlin's mother in a nunnery...
Is just one version of his origin. There are others that claim he was the unrecognized son of a noble, and still other that name his father. But I'd stick with the normal route.

The Book of Sires has all this history compiled into one comprehensive timetable. It does not go into the details of some of these questions, but does give the yearly chronological timetable for the period you are discussing. YPMV can still used throughout, so each gm can tell their own story. Perhaps Aurelius did marry. But, he did not have any children that survived to adulthood. Uther's one son that is known is also killed and thus Arthur becomes the focal point. But there is plenty of room for interpretation...

Is the Book of Sires out?

Not yet, soon.

Thanks. I'll keep my fingers crossed on some of the dates I worked out for things. Hopefully I won't have any major chronology problems.

I've got some info on events and battles for those Periods (Votimer's rebellion, Battles of Maisbeili and Kaerconan ) as well as a few adventures ideas (Bringing Aurlius and Uther to Brittany, Birth of Merlin, Vortigern's Tower, The Giants Dance)

I had some ideas for fleshing out the character generation and storyline too. I'd like to start with the characters being more Dark Age Tribal Cymric or Roman in the beginning ( I have some chargen stuff for Legionary characters, both Knightly and Common), and evolve into full fledged Knights by the Aurelius Period.


Obviously I'm not the only one playing/have played in this territory. We need to talk. I'll send a PM.

Khanwulf, was that PM to Atgxtg or Hzark10?

Well I got one, but you might get one too.

BTW, Hzark10, are you the one working on the Book of Sires?

Yes. A lot of people had their hands on it, but I am the author.

So does that mean I could get you confirm a few dates? For example:

Constantin made King of Britain (I think Geff. of Monmoth give him a 10 year reign, but the historcy section in KAP 5 suggests that he became King shortly after the Romans left (411-415)
Birth of Aurelius Ambrosius (435?)
Birth of Uther (436)
Birth of Merlin (352)

Book of Sires has Costantin becoming High King in 415.
Birth of Constans (423)
Birth of Aurelius (433)
Birth of Uther (436)

THANKS!
That gives Constantin a much longer reign (25 years) than I had expected (I think Geoffry of Monmouth gives him a 10 year reign). 415 Works out much better though, since most accounts have this happening close to when the Romans left. I'll update mt time line. I think I can start a Pendragon campaign around 410 now.

Keep me posted. I have also been working on a Book of Aurelius. Might be interesting to see where we agree or disagree.

Yeah, we should collaborate. I could probably send you a timeline. Expanding the campaign another 15 years for Aurelius is fairly easy. Further back than that get's a little trickier, mostly because Mallory doesn't go back that far, and we have to sift through conflicting sources.

I'm lucky in that I did this before way back when, and found some of my old notes., so I've done a lot of the work before. For me I'm mostly updating to KAP5+ and shifting dates to match the timeline given in the family history section of KAP5.

BTW, How are you handling Hengest and the Battle of Kaerconan? Some sources have him beheaded by Duke Eldol, but others don't. In the GPC Hengest is still ruling Saxons in 488, and appears to die in his sleep in 491. Aurelius does grant mercy to Octa and Eosa and it wouldn't be hard to have him extend to to Hengest,or have Hengest somehow escape or be ransomed. But, Hengest doesn't seem to do much in the Uther Period, so killing him off wouldn't change anything.

Yeah, we should collaborate. I could probably send you a timeline. Expanding the campaign another 15 years for Aurelius is fairly easy. Further back than that get's a little trickier, mostly because Mallory doesn't go back that far, and we have to sift through conflicting sources.

Once Book of Sires is out, it becomes much easier to extend backwards, since it has yearly history 439 - 510 for Kingdom of Logres, 439 - 485 for Cumbria and 439 - 465 or so for many of the other regions. I have mentioned that in my opinion, it would be easy to take that framework and build a prequel GPC campaign around it. See the Book of Sires announcement for more detail.



BTW, How are you handling Hengest and the Battle of Kaerconan? Some sources have him beheaded by Duke Eldol, but others don't. In the GPC Hengest is still ruling Saxons in 488, and appears to die in his sleep in 491. Aurelius does grant mercy to Octa and Eosa and it wouldn't be hard to have him extend to to Hengest,or have Hengest somehow escape or be ransomed. But, Hengest doesn't seem to do much in the Uther Period, so killing him off wouldn't change anything.

From Book of Uther, p. 102, for the GPC Expansion:
"Hengest dies in 469, not in 488. He is executed after
the Battle of Conisbrough by Duke Eldol. His son Aesc
is the King of Kent 469 - 518. This is also a change to King
Arthur Pendragon 5.1, p. 49."

Although personally, I have Aesc die in 488, and have his (fake) son Oisc take over for 488 - 518. This gives Kent a younger, more energetic king during the Anarchy rather than Aesc who must be quite old by then, and would definitely be ancient by Badon.

Okay, I would really love a prequel GPC, and would love to see some character creation stuff for previous periods.

There is enough info in Book of Sires (290 pages) to generate tons of scenarios/battles. The book is divided into sections where each major land grouping (Cambria, Logres, Cornwall, etc) has its own flow of events tying itself into a large picture. True, it does not have lots of them completely fleshed out, nor does it have a major theme to follow along, but a creative gm can create a campaign set elsewhere in Logres other than Salisbury.

Hi Hzark10--my comment with the quote was primarily for Atgxtg because he referenced the battles, which I'm particularly keen on seeing how others did the particulars for.

Love ya, and desperately waiting for Book of Sires (as well as a bit of free time, frankly) to see how the official timeline shakes out. In the meanwhile, I have my own blend of historicity that can be added to a "Book of Ambrosius" effort.

--Khanwulf

Khanwulf,
I've got 468 nearly finished. I have to add in something for the Seige of Carlion (off camera-the PKs will be too busy at Dinas Emrys, Maisbeli, and Kaerconan), and add in the Battle (which you've done) and burning of Votigern's Tower. Oh, and Aurelius coronation. Where do you want it when it'd done?

Just so you are aware, Book of Sires primarily deals with the years 439 to 480/485 so is set very well up to continue with the GPC. There is an appendix that contains the info to go further until 510, but is only set up for Logres. Vortigern, his rise and fall, are prominent in the book as well as Aurelius' invasion in 466 and the final destruction of Vortigern in his tower in 468, when upon Aurelius is made High King. He then leads the British to defeat the Saxons in 469 when Hengest is killed and remains High King until his death in 480.

Thanks Hzark10, is this a good time to inquire when you're presently expecting to release Book of Sires?

Related to this thread, if Riothames is NOT Ambrosius, that gives the High King another couple good years to hang around doing... what? In 470-472, before Windsor in 473. Apparently he's not getting formally married, or at least not producing heirs....

Atgxtg I sent you a PM with a link to a Google doc where some of my notes have been dumped.

My major battle timeline goes something like:

466: "Battle" in which Vortigern abdicates Logres (don't recall it's name)
467: Caer Leon, in which the bulk of Vortigern's loyalists capitulate
468: Dinas Emrys
469: Maisbeli-Kaerconan (they were the same day, as far as I can tell)
470: <Cil Dara> (Uther in Ireland)
471: Riothamus at Clermont
473: Battle of Windsor
477: Aelle
478: Invasion of Frisia
479: <Pascent Raids>
480: Pascent and Aesc battles

479 is an extrapolation and Uther's Irish adventure has never been formally named that I know of. Some of the others I don't recall the names of off hand.

--Khanwulf

There are plenty of differences here. Am trying to get a release date, but my assumption is still this year. Don't want to overstep my bounds here, so will query the powers that be as to what I can and can't say.

BobS.

There are plenty of differences here. Am trying to get a release date, but my assumption is still this year. Don't want to overstep my bounds here, so will query the powers that be as to what I can and can't say.

BobS.

Well my approach is that iron sharpens iron: we're all fumbling with the same sources and both trying to make sense and interpret for story. If you have a different summary list of Ambrosian notable conflicts you could share that would help as well.

Riothamus != Ambrosius is a bit of a surprise but not something that overturns story (for me, anyway).

--Khanwulf

Oh, he could be doing a few things. While Aurelius doesn't land in Tontes until 466, he is active enough on the continent that Vortigern and Hegest know of his and fear him. Some version of Riothamus have Aurelius as his Lieutenant and successor.

My major time for Aurelus goes something like this:

433: Born (thanks Hzark10!)
448: Age 15, begins military career in Armorica (Brittany).
452: Possibly has a liaison with a princess from Dyfed. This could play into Merlin's parentage, or just been a way to gather information of Dyfed/Gomeret. Some soruces claim that Aurelis married one of Vortigerns daughters, so that's another possibility.
454; Age 21, almost certainly fights against the Huns under Aetius (maybe is Aetius Riothamus?)
458-459: Probably take charge of the dissidents fleeing from Britain, and integrates them into his army.
462: "Introduces"/reforms the Institution of Knightood. IMO this is probably a reorganization of his troops to a proto-feudal model, based on the manor system. Since it takes hims several year to do this , both on the continent and in Britain, according to the BoK&L, then this might include a few continental battles. Probably against the Visagoths and Huns.
466: Lands in Britian at the port of Tontes. I wasn't aware of a battle with Vortigern here.
467-8: Seige of Carlion (Date from the Family Background section in KAP5). It take two years, but I suspect that he just bottles up the men there to keep him off his flank while he consolidates his power, and isolates Vortigern in "Wales" .
469: End of Seige of Carlion. Battles of Mount Snowdon (Dynas Emyrs II), Maisbeli and Kaerconan. The latter two seem to happen about a day apart. Just from the fact that the two sites are about 13 miles apart.
472 (can put this anytime between 469 and 472): The Giants Dance (where he wants to build a moment at Salisbury to commentate the memory of the victims of the Night of Long Knives and ends up sending Uther and Merlin to Ireland for Stonehenge. Uther battles King Gillomanus of Ireland.
Also during that time both Aurlius and Uther can deal with all the raiding.
473: Battle of Windsor (KAP5 Family Background). Saxons defeat Aurelius!
477: Aurelius either nearly gets into a Nealy a Battle with King Aelle in Sussex, or if battle is joined he manages to extricate himself from the situation before he gets caught against superior numbers.
478: Battle of Frisia. Possibly a few more (seems unlikely that he spends years building a huge fleet, then sails all the way to Frisia just to get into one small batttle. The must have been something else going on.
479: Battle with Pascent, son of Votigern. Pascent is defeated and flees to Ireland.
Saxons invade the north, so there is probably at least one battle in the North.
480: Battle of Salisbury, death of Aurelius.

Well my approach is that iron sharpens iron: we're all fumbling with the same sources and both trying to make sense and interpret for story. If you have a different summary list of Ambrosian notable conflicts you could share that would help as well.

Yeah. Sadly what we need, is Greg (Rest in Peace), to decide which version of which story to go with. For instance, depending on which version of Vortigern's tower you go with can determine Merlin's parentage (his father was a Roman Consul, a Cymric prince, or an incubus), when Aurelius lands (some versions have Merlin saying that Aurelius is landing in Brittan "Now".), and how Vortigern dies (in battle or burns in his tower).


Riothamus != Ambrosius is a bit of a surprise but not something that overturns story (for me, anyway).
--Khanwulf

I think I confused you. Officially, according to Hzard10, , and the Book of Sires, he isn't. The idea of Aurelius being Riothamus was my idea, from back which I thought was safe ground that no one else was walking on. It seemed like a good idea, strengthen the similarities between Aurelius and Arthur, and helps to explain Aurelius big reputation. There was a historian, Leon Fleuriot, who argued the case that the two were the same, and that Riothamus left the continent to rule in Britain, which fitted perfectly into what I was attempting. Nut it was all my pet theory, not official KAP timeline.

Well, the Book of Sires was approved by Greg. It is the history he/we wrote and put into place. At times, he worked hand-in-hand overseeing it, such as Aquitaine where King Lancelot the Elder, was written in. At other times he directly added to the history as he had his vision. This is related in how the Romans interacted with Britain. And others, he let me, and others, create the history.

So, long story short, there is one story/version that is now official KAP canon (or will be until such time that the powers that be decide a change needs to be made).

To confirm, Aurelius is NOT Riothamus. He is born, as stated in 433. Upon Constans death, he and Uther are whisked out of Britain to Brittany. He becomes a squire, and then a knight. He learns tactics during the various battles with the Aquitanians/Visigoths, the Bretons, the Huns, the Romans, and others. He invades England in 466, fights many a battle whittling down Vortigern's allies and loyalists until he traps him in his tower where Vortigern dies in 468. In Book of Sires, many will flock to Aurelius' banner when they invade, and during the next 2 years and will be rewarded with lands (conveniently where the gm has established the game). In 469, the Saxons are defeated in a couple of battles (Maisbeli & Conisbrough) where Hengist is captured and killed. He will continue to rule until his death in 480.

Well, the Book of Sires was approved by Greg. It is the history he/we wrote and put into place. At times, he worked hand-in-hand overseeing it, such as Aquitaine where King Lancelot the Elder, was written in. At other times he directly added to the history as he had his vision. This is related in how the Romans interacted with Britain. And others, he let me, and others, create the history.

So, long story short, there is one story/version that is now official KAP canon (or will be until such time that the powers that be decide a change needs to be made).

To confirm, Aurelius is NOT Riothamus. He is born, as stated in 433. Upon Constans death, he and Uther are whisked out of Britain to Brittany. He becomes a squire, and then a knight. He learns tactics during the various battles with the Aquitanians/Visigoths, the Bretons, the Huns, the Romans, and others. He invades England in 466, fights many a battle whittling down Vortigern's allies and loyalists until he traps him in his tower where Vortigern dies in 468. In Book of Sires, many will flock to Aurelius' banner when they invade, and during the next 2 years and will be rewarded with lands (conveniently where the gm has established the game).

Cool, works for me. I don't think any of us are complaining about or disputing the official time-line, whatever it may turn out to be, we're just curious about which road it takes, and the various forks along the way.


In 469, the Saxons are defeated in a couple of battles (Maisbeli & Conisbrough) where Hengist is captured and killed. He will continue to rule until his death in 480.[/QUOTE]

Oooh! Is Hengest death at Coniborough (Kaerconan) official, now? That contradicts the GPC. I'm all for beheading the old Saxon (actually he a Jutes), in fact wrote up Year 469 and the Battle of Kaerconan., and had Eldol do just that.

Yeah, he would just be an old geezer in the later years, so we have him killed here and Aesc takes over.

Thanks Hzark10, is this a good time to inquire when you're presently expecting to release Book of Sires?

SIRES is in final layout and proofing and will be available in PDF and hardcover POD formats (all going well) right before the year is out.

Oooh! Is Hengest death at Coniborough (Kaerconan) official, now? That contradicts the GPC. I'm all for beheading the old Saxon (actually he a Jutes), in fact wrote up Year 469 and the Battle of Kaerconan., and had Eldol do just that.

Guess you missed my earlier answer:
http://nocturnalmediaforum.com/iecarus/forum/showthread.php?3169-The-downfall-of-Ambrosius&p=26130&viewfull=1#post26130

It has been canon ever since Book of Uther came out.

Yup I did.

SIRES is in final layout and proofing and will be available in PDF and hardcover POD formats (all going well) right before the year is out.

Thanks David!

It's much anticipated.

SIRES is in final layout and proofing and will be available in PDF and hardcover POD formats (all going well) right before the year is out.

:) Hopefully in time for Christmas!

Since this thread revolves around the dates given for Ambrosius in the game, more than around how long his reign is in the medieval chronicles and romances, shouldn't this be in the Great Pendragon Campaign forum?

Perhaps, but the original question was regarding how literature portrayed Ambrosius Pendragon. His reign predates GPC, so I just answered questions and it went from there. Do you feel it should be in the GPC forum?

Perhaps, but the original question was regarding how literature portrayed Ambrosius Pendragon. His reign predates GPC, so I just answered questions and it went from there. Do you feel it should be in the GPC forum?

Yes, my original question was an attempt to tease out the themes behind Ambrosius as he links to Uther and Arthur. Obviously this is complicated because Ambrosius Aurelius is the most defensible of the three in terms of historical weight.

It got a bit off-track but not too far.

Since this thread revolves around the dates given for Ambrosius in the game, more than around how long his reign is in the medieval chronicles and romances, shouldn't this be in the Great Pendragon Campaign forum?

Why? Aurelius is dead by the time of the GPC. Most, if not all, of these ideas involve things that take place before the GPC.

Why? Aurelius is dead by the time of the GPC. Most, if not all, of these ideas involve things that take place before the GPC.

I suspect that merlyn's point is that the discussion has drifted to GAME content (KAP, GPC, UTHER, SIRES), not the literary sources themselves (Gildas & HRB, mainly).

Yes, that was my point; the center of the discussion (as I interpreted it) was why Ambrosius was childless, which is more of an issue in the Pendragon chronology (where he rules for several years) than in the implied timelines of the medieval works (where his reign is over quickly, and becomes increasingly little more than a bridge from Vortigern to Uther Pendragon - to the point where, by the Prose Merlin, he's largely an explanation for Uther's nickname - which allows him far less opportunity to wed and to beget heirs).

I'm fine with the thread moving. But, I don't know how to do that. It also appears to be winding down until the release of Sires.

Yes, that was my point; the center of the discussion (as I interpreted it) was why Ambrosius was childless, which is more of an issue in the Pendragon chronology (where he rules for several years) than in the implied timelines of the medieval works (where his reign is over quickly, and becomes increasingly little more than a bridge from Vortigern to Uther Pendragon - to the point where, by the Prose Merlin, he's largely an explanation for Uther's nickname - which allows him far less opportunity to wed and to beget heirs).

Back to sources, is there anything that states that his reign in over quickly? We get very little information on Aurelius other than what a great man, leader, general he was supposed to be, and who his father, brothers, and uncle were. Even his military campaigns are only covered from the time he lands in Britain to become High King. What information we get is obviously just what pertains to Britain.