I am new to the game and at the moment trying to figure out the cost to equip
the main settlement of our Banneret Knight with some simple fortifications.
The problem is that I cant match the rules in the Book of the Manor and the
Noble book together, even taking into account the increased fortification prices.
That and some of the prices look prohibitive.
Especially the cost for gate work with the multiplier seem to be far to high.
Also the Garrison req seem high, as 1 professional Soldier per 10 peasants
seems excessive.

The Village Tinsdale

Noble´s Book
Population 600 => POP6 AREA6
Ditch and Rampart 6 Libra DV2
Moat 12 Libra DV4
Wodden Palisade 180 Libra DV3
2 Gates 10 Libra DV-4
2 Gatesworks 50 Libra DV2
Total: 258 Libra DV7

Garrison: 60

The Manor Tinsdale
Castle AREA1 Book of the Manor
Ditch and Rampart 1 Libra DV2 5 Libra DV2
Moat 2 Libra DV4 2 Libra DV4
Wodden Palisade 30 Libra DV3 15 Libra DV2
1 Gates 5 Libra DV-2
Gatework 25 Libra DV1
Total: 63 Libra DV8 22 Libra DV8
without Gateworks 38 Libra DV7

Garrison: 10 Garrison: 5

I am new to the game

Welcome aboard.


and at the moment trying to figure out the cost to equip
the main settlement of our Banneret Knight with some simple fortifications.
The problem is that I cant match the rules in the Book of the Manor and the
Noble book together, even taking into account the increased fortification prices.

What are you trying to do?
I see your quoted stats, but am not sure of your quesion.

--Greg

Looks about right for NobBk... and it should be expensive

Keep in mind, if paying for the pop, as well, that's another £150. (Pop 6 x£25)...

Further, unless hiring specialists, you're only going to get £6 per year worth of work... so you ony pay for £6 per year. And maybe another £6 of specialists.

What are you trying to do?
I see your quoted stats, but am not sure of your quesion.


Well.
I. Did I get it right ?

II. Am I the only one to whom it seems that the cost of Gateworks at 25 Libra ( 5 Libra in NobBk times 5 due to the Book of the Manor) seems exessive ?
Would you set the price at that level if you would publish a book about fortifications today ?
Maybe I am underestimating the work which needs to be done for gateworks due to my ignorance, and in comparison with a wooden tower it seems inefficient (eg. woodden tower cost 25 libra and has DV of 2*10/AREA, Gateworks clock in 25 libra and have a a DV of +1*10/AREA)
Or in this case
2 Gates without Gateworks for an AREA6 town have a DV of 2*-2*10/6 = -6.67 and cost 10 Libra
2 Gates with Gateworks for an AREA6 town have a DV of 2*(-2+1)*10/6 = -3.33 and cost 60 Libra
2 Gates and 2 Woodentowers for an AREA6 town have a DV of 2*(-2+2)*10/6 = 0 and cost 60 Libra
So why build Gateworks at all ?
The thing I am the referee and I am at the moment hacking together a price list for my knights to use, which is why am asking these questions.

III. How does one pay for city/town/village garrisons ?
To defend the village at area 6 one needs 60 soldiers, which cost atleast 60 Libra per year.
So how is everyone else dealing with that ?
Could one simply use the peasant leavy as soldiers in this case ? (<= This kinda seems wrong)

Actually, I think you try to put together things that are different : BoM deals with Manor and village, though Noblebook ("Noblesse Oblige" in French ?) deals with Castle and other military fortification.

In my own opinion, levy is sufficient for the protection of a normal village... you need soldiers only in military buildings... in a village, the protection is granted by the knight (and his family) who lives in the manor nearby...

Yes... I think a levy of peasants or warriors is fine for the village, since in times of trouble they will head for the castle and have the lord and his garrison protect them while the village gets burned..... sad, but true, im afraid.... :'( Also... the reason its so expensive is because... it is!!!! I dont believe the average banneret has a castle on his manor ( or anywhere for that matter). They might have a VERY VERY rich manor, but probably just a manor , period, when all is said and done. At least that is my underatsnding? Maybe im wrong here.

In my understanding, the castles belong to the Earl, at least in Salisbury (like Vagon castle !!!).
So, yes, a castle is just for a very rich noble.

What are you trying to do?
I see your quoted stats, but am not sure of your question.


Well.
I. Did I get it right ?


No, but perhaps not through any fault of yours. The values are incorrect, and I'll get to the details below.




II. Am I the only one to whom it seems that the cost of Gateworks at 25 Libra ( 5 Libra in NobBk times 5 due to the Book of the Manor) seems excessive ?
Would you set the price at that level if you would publish a book about fortifications today ?


Yes, I would. Part of the confusion comes, I think, from this being for a full sized stone gatehouse, inappropriate for the wooden palisade described. Use Wooden Gate Tower instead.



Maybe I am underestimating the work which needs to be done for gateworks due to my ignorance, and in comparison with a wooden tower it seems inefficient (eg. wooden tower cost 25 libra and has DV of 2*10/AREA, Gateworks clock in 25 libra and have a a DV of +1*10/AREA)


Costs for a gatehouse (wooden or stone) come from the fact that the have walls specially reinforced, sometimes doubled in thickness. They have two very thick, iron bound gates--one probably a drawbridge, along with all the mechanics: capstans, pulleys, and chains to make them work; and inside the gate house there at least one portcullis (maybe two) and more of the same mechanisms to draw them up and drop them. Let's see, drill through the ceiling of the entryway (floor of the chapel above) for murder holes, and other things that do not spring right to my mind, but would be known to the builders of the time.


The thing I am the referee and I am at the moment hacking together a price list for my knights to use, which is why am asking these questions.


Always good to ask. It helps me see where tings are not clear.



III. How does one pay for city/town/village garrisons ?


Out of your own pocket, I mean moneybag. I mean corn byre.
Generally the grant for a holding includes enough land to pay and feed whatever soldiers are required for a levy.
If you lord wants you and ten men at arms, the land grant will be £6 for the knight and £10 for the men at arms.



To defend the village


Except in extraordinary circumstances, no one would do this.
A village isn't worth the expense. It doesn't generate significant income, and is easily rebuilt. It's only a peasant population--if they can hide in the castle they won't really care if their village is burned down.
Walls for a city--maybe. A cheap ditch and rampart is enough to deter bandits and robbers; palisade is enough to discourage small bands of raiders.



at area 6 one needs 60 soldiers, which cost at least 60 Libra per year.
So how is everyone else dealing with that ?
Could one simply use the peasant levy as soldiers in this case ? (<= This kinda seems wrong)


No, the defense assumes that every peasant available is working, either putting out fires, passing rocks and supplies up to the barricades, hauling broken buildings to clear streets and prepare barricades, calming sheep and cattle and women and children; moving the wounded, helping the wounded, and the bravest among them on the top of the walls to push down ladders and get shot in the face with arrows. And each of those jobs needs to be overseen or it will not be done quickly and efficiently. And most of them, anyway, on the ramparts with bows and armor and long spears.
I estimate about ten leading the throng, and fighting up front.

Such are my thoughts.

I will get so some specific numbers soon.

--Greg

Yes, I would. Part of the confusion comes, I think, from this being for a full sized stone gatehouse, inappropriate for the wooden palisade described. Use Wooden Gate Tower instead.

Costs for a gatehouse (wooden or stone) come from the fact that the have walls specially reinforced, sometimes doubled in thickness. They have two very thick, iron bound gates--one probably a drawbridge, along with all the mechanics: capstans, pulleys, and chains to make them work; and inside the gate house there at least one portcullis (maybe two) and more of the same mechanisms to draw them up and drop them. Let's see, drill through the ceiling of the entryway (floor of the chapel above) for murder holes, and other things that do not spring right to my mind, but would be known to the builders of the time.


I am still not quite satisfied with the DV und Cost for Gateworks and Towers.
Thing is, if one can combine Gateworks and Gate Towers one gets the situation that, for a premium, a fortifications with many gates has a better DV then one with few, and if one can not then one should always build towers before gateworks.

Maybe I am too much of a munchkin or modern efficiency hound :-[, but im my opinion (and historical accuracy be damned ;))Gateworks should either have the same DV or better as a Wooden Tower or should be cheaper, so it makes sense to build them.

I am at the moment of the mind to cut the price of gateworks in half, make them combinable with gate towers and increase the drop of DV by gates by one.
The cost/DV table for the items would then look like this:

Cost DV
Gate 5 -3
Wooden Gate Tower 30 2 one per gate
Wooden Gate Works 15 1 one per gate

Does this look okay ?



Except in extraordinary circumstances, no one would do this.
A village isn't worth the expense. It doesn't generate significant income, and is easily rebuilt. It's only a peasant population--if they can hide in the castle they won't really care if their village is burned down.
Walls for a city--maybe. A cheap ditch and rampart is enough to deter bandits and robbers; palisade is enough to discourage small bands of raiders.


Part of the problem is, I believe, that my players have rather a modern attitude towards their peasants.




No, the defense assumes that every peasant available is working, either putting out fires, passing rocks and supplies up to the barricades, hauling broken buildings to clear streets and prepare barricades, calming sheep and cattle and women and children; moving the wounded, helping the wounded, and the bravest among them on the top of the walls to push down ladders and get shot in the face with arrows. And each of those jobs needs to be overseen or it will not be done quickly and efficiently. And most of them, anyway, on the ramparts with bows and armor and long spears.
I estimate about ten leading the throng, and fighting up front.

Such are my thoughts.

I will get so some specific numbers soon.

--Greg


Thank you very much.

Chaning the topic slightly, as far as I understand building fortifications was a right of kings, in the Holy Roman Empire atleast.
According to the Sachsenspiegel one was not allowed deeper ditches then one man alone can dig or stockades higher then a knight could reach, entry points no be higher then knee level above the ground and so on.
What would be the law in Uther Pendragon/Arthurs Britain ?

I am still not quite satisfied with the DV und Cost for Gateworks and Towers.

That is quite OK, even if do not ultimately agree.



Thing is, if one can combine Gateworks and Gate Towers


Ah, perhaps that is the problem.
Nobles Book, page 51; under "Gate Defenses," second sentence
"Each gate may have either a gate tower or a gate house, not both."





Except in extraordinary circumstances, no one would do this.
A village isn't worth the expense. It doesn't generate significant income, and is easily rebuilt. It's only a peasant population--if they can hide in the castle they won't really care if their village is burned down.
Walls for a city--maybe. A cheap ditch and rampart is enough to deter bandits and robbers; palisade is enough to discourage small bands of raiders.


Part of the problem is, I believe, that my players have rather a modern attitude towards their peasants.


Sure, lots of players do. And you, the GM, can decide whether the peasants are like medieval ones or fantasy ones.
I play that they are interested in their own collective welfare before that of their lord.
And their characters ought to have a high "Care for Commoners" too; otherwise they say one thing, but as the stats would show, they act another way.




Changing the topic slightly,

I have started a new thread for a new topic, and ask everyone on these to do the same, please.

--Greg

[
Ah, perhaps that is the problem.
Nobles Book, page 51; under "Gate Defenses," second sentence
"Each gate may have either a gate tower or a gate house, not both."


Then noone is going to build gateworks.

[
Ah, perhaps that is the problem.
Nobles Book, page 51; under "Gate Defenses," second sentence
"Each gate may have either a gate tower or a gate house, not both."


Then no one is going to build gateworks.


Unless they follow a historical route and do not build a Keep.

--g

It seems only " Poor people" are not going to build gateworks!!! hahahahhah!!!!!!!!!!!! just kidding. :P